#5896759 - 10/31/11 12:06 PM
Do you believe in the sanctity of human life RIP Mom 11/8
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Adam G
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 06/07/00
Posts: 59300
Loc: Arrr-Kansas
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For purposes of this poll, ignore the abortion issue. Arguing about whether an unborn child/fetus is human life is a debate for another thread. Do you believe in the cradle to the grave sanctity of human life?
Definition of sanctity, for reference:
sanc·ti·ty/ˈsaNG(k)titē/
Noun:
The state or quality of being holy, sacred, or saintly.
Ultimate importance and inviolability.
Since you shouldnt ever start a poll thread without first sharing yourself, this has been my experience. My mother is 58 years old and has advanced Early Onset Alzheimer's, arguably the worst form of a group of disorders generally referred to as Dementia. In what seems like another life ago she was a clinical psychologist, so very educated and independent. With this particular disease they say that you typically have five years from the point of diagnosis until you're in the ground. If memory serves, my mom was diagnosed in 2005 or 2006.
For the next five years she went steadily downhill until it got to the point that living at the home she has been in for 20 years was too dangerous for her. Among other things, she forgot where the bathroom was, didn't recognize my stepfather and stepbrother who live with her (let alone me), started rolling down the stairs and breaking bones, etc. It was also a tremendously unfair burden on my stepfather and stepbrother to deal with her care alone.
I hired a lawyer and filed a lawsuit to be appointed her guardian (so I could place her in a nursing home) and then to transfer the house to my stepfather before applying for Medicaid. Eventually that all worked out and my mom went into the first nursing home on July 15, 2011. From that point on, the progression of the disease probably increased tenfold. She was eventually booted out of the nursing home twice for behavior issues and did a couple of stints in a psych ward. The doctors tried to get a handle on what was going on but no definitive cause was ever pinpointed outside of normal progression of the dementia.
I eventually found a new nursing home to take her once she was discharged from the psych hospital. This was really difficult; her application was denied by upwards of a dozen other nursing homes based on her troubles at the prior facility. She has been in the new facility for eight weeks or so. It has been an up and down experience. On the up side, she hasn't been booted out yet. On the down side, she hasn't been booted out because of how far her condition has deteriorated. As a result, she's no longer a threat to do anything disruptive or dangerous. Seeing her yesterday (first time in a week or so) was eye opening. She looks skeletal - she's 5'2" and if she even weighed 70 lbs, I would be surprised. Her life consists entirely of laying in this kind of lounge chair where she gazes off into oblivion and twitches involuntarily. She is an enormous ball of anger and frustration due to her lack of ability to communicate. Her body is covered with bruises from where she slams her various limbs around because that's all she can do at this point to express herself. She long ago lost the ability to walk, feed herself, or do any of life's other daily tasks that we take for granted. It is a struggle to get her to drink out of a cup, even if you hold it up to her lips. This, of course, is a prelude to how many people with this disease eventually die - they forget how to swallow and waste away to nothing, literally.
I spoke with my stepfather about her situation last night. We both agree that life is purely torture for her at this point and we both wished there was some process by which we could hasten her suffering. That, of course, is not allowed due to certain politicians and their supporters who insist that each and every human life is sacred.
Anyway, I dont make this post looking for sympathy. I'm just looking for somebody to explain to me how 1) human life, in each and every circumstance, is of the "ultimate importance and inviolability" and 2) how it would not be more merciful and God-like to have some sort of process or procedure by which we can minimize or eliminate suffering in situations such as these. UxiSi, beefy, johnso, or whoever else wants to take a shot, please lay it on me.
*EDIT*
My mom passed at 12:48 AM on 11/7/11. Seems that God or somebody was calling my bluff by making this post. Here's a copy and paste of a play by play I wrote out last night.
I saw my mother a week ago Sunday at the nursing home. She looked pretty awful. She was strapped to a chair because she couldnt walk anymore, weighed about 70 lbs, and was having a lot of trouble drinking even if you held the cup up to her lips. She was one big ball of frustration because she couldnt communicate. As a result she just repeatedly slammed her arms and legs against her chair, leading her to be bruised all over her body. They pumped her full of anti-anxiety drugs, but apparently it wasn't enough.
So I got a call at the office at 4 or so on Friday afternoon from the nursing home saying that my mom had a high fever and they were sending her over to Lutheran General. I didnt really think too much of it, just that I would hop in the car and head out there after work. Five minutes later they called me again and said that they couldnt wait until the hospital got there to pick her up because her oxygen levels were dropping so they were calling 911. A little more ominous.
I got out there at 730 or so. My stepfather was already there and she had a big box over her face which was a breathing machine. Turns out that she has pneumonia, which is what most Alzheimer's patients usually die from. She was transferred from the ER to ICU and Marc and I met with the head resident. We discussed that my mom is in end stage Alzheimer's, meaning that the end is coming soon even if she makes it through this weekend. He said that if the breathing machine doesn't get her oxygenation rate up, then the next steps are more invasive. Particularly, they would have to do a endotracheal tube (tube down her throat) and a arterial line, meaning something put in her jugular vein. We all agreed that we would not go that route, but rather dial it back to simple oxygen in the nose and morphine to keep her comfortable until the end came. I left the ER that night at 930 or so.
Around 1130 Friday night I got a call from the attending physician in the ICU, saying that my mom's heart rate was through the roof. Basically her heart and lungs were working overtime (155bpm) and oxygen wasnt getting through her body. The doctor said that he had already conferred with my stepfather and the head physician at the nursing home and they agreed that they should take off the breathing machine and switch to morphine. I asked how long she would have if they took her off the breathing machine and he estimated a half hour. That's when it became very real to me. If I agreed to it, my mother would be dead in 30 minutes. I thought about it for a minute or two while he was on the phone before agreeing to it, knowing that it was the right thing to do. Still, saying it and actually doing it are two very different things.
I raced over to the hospital, doing 110 on the Edens, running red lights, the whole nine yards. But she didnt pass. She just sat there, her heart racing 155bpm as the hours passed. She still looked awful - eyes open and unblinking, eyes just moving back and forth rythymically (sp?), mouth wide open like she was screaming but wasnt. It was hard to watch, but still she wouldnt let go.
I spent the night that night and the next day lots of people came to say goodbye. I think she knew everybody was there and put on quite a show for them. Her vitals kind of stabilized. We also found out that she had MRSA in addition to the pneumonia, neither of which were being treated. But somehow, she didnt pass.
She eventually passed very early this morning, ten minutes after I left for the night after having been there all day long. Maybe she was waiting for me to just hurry up and GTFO so I wouldnt have to see it. I'm not sure. But at least her suffering is over. This disease really did a number on her and I wouldnt wish it on anybody.
I had a really interesting conversation with one of the nurses who sat with me and just talked for about two hours. She had been an ICU nurse for like 10 years so she is around death on a daily basis. I asked her whether she was spiritual and/or believed in God and she said yes to both. I said ok, give me a story, something that you saw in the ICU that was undeniably the hand of God at work. She said that's easy. She had a patient come in who was dying of Stage 3 brain cancer. They did a brain scan on him and it showed the huge tumor. He spent two days in the hospital basically waiting to die and they did another scan. The second scan showed that the tumor had absolutely disappeared. That patient walked out of the hospital healthy. She gave me a handful of other stories, but that was the shortest and sweetest.
I wasn't praying for any sort of miracle with my mom, knowing that it likely wouldn't come. I just prayed that God was somehow involved in the process and I'm confident that He was. Even if we cant see or understand whatever God's plan is, it's important to remember that it's there somewhere.
Thanks for reading all.
Edited by Adam G (11/08/11 04:40 PM)
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#5896792 - 10/31/11 12:13 PM
Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll
[Re: Adam G]
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Back 5
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 18123
Loc: CA
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I watched my Grandfather go through the same thing. I don't think he was ever diagnosed with Alzheimer's but more dementia and loss of will to live due to his twin brother dying.
At any rate. I don't think we, as people, really have the capacity to administer assisted suicides. I think this will be something that ends up abused.
I have spent some time thinking about what decisions I would make should I ever have kids and prenatal testing reveals downs or another genetic birth defect.
I do not know how to answer your poll.
A 4th option of maybe I would vote for.
_________________________
RIP Morgann 2004-2010. Enjoy Doggie Heaven  If at first you do succeed, try something harder. When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.
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#5896800 - 10/31/11 12:15 PM
Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll
[Re: caspersvapors]
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#lodestar
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 42768
Loc: Not in Kansas anymore
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I had to stop reading that part way through and finish after reflecting. I cannot imagine what your family is going through.
_________________________
 I take no joy in owning you people like this anymore. Now I just feel like I'm teaching a retarded class & doing God's work." -Napoleon complex things
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#5896825 - 10/31/11 12:20 PM
Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll
[Re: Adam G]
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GRN17EXploder
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 05/04/00
Posts: 14392
Loc: Philly Burbs
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I believe in the sanctity of human life, but I also agree that there is a point at which you are torturing a person for no reason other than someone's perception of what is/is not moral. We do the humane thing and put down an animal that has no chance of recovering from an illness or injury, and I think the same should be the case for a human being.
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#5896828 - 10/31/11 12:20 PM
Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll
[Re: paulsan2112]
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96lapis coupe
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 08/20/01
Posts: 15654
Loc: acquiring satellites.....
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damn, Adam. I hope your Mom finds peace soon.
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#5896832 - 10/31/11 12:21 PM
Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll
[Re: caspersvapors]
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M
Great guy, but let's face it:
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 11/28/99
Posts: 42770
Loc: Tampa, Florida
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I've watched thee grandparents between my wife and I waste away and die from dementia. I couldn't fathom seeing my parents or inlaws go through the same.
I believe in the sactity of human life, but there's a gray area in the beginning and end. If I'm in my death bed and want to end my life, I should be able to.
I hope before I succumb to dementia (very likely cause of the family history), I have a spark of awareness and can chose to off myself doing something cool, like blind folded African lion wrestling. 
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#5896839 - 10/31/11 12:22 PM
Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll
[Re: paulsan2112]
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Philabong
Philabong
Unregistered
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Sactity of Life means that life (a live body) must be kept alive at all costs, regardless of the quality of life being led or the wishes of the person whose life it is.
So yeah, I'd say they're mutually exclusive.
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#5896841 - 10/31/11 12:22 PM
Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll
[Re: M]
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skierd
Post Master Sr
Registered: 08/21/01
Posts: 9104
Loc: Fairbanks, AK
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I believe in the sactity of human life, but there's a gray area in the beginning and end, where I feel a mother and one's self should have control. If mother wants to kill her unborn baby, have at it. If I'm in my death bed and want to end my life, I should be able to. I hope before I succumb to dementia (very likely cause of the family history), I have a spark of awareness and can chose to off myself doing something cool, like blind folded African lion wrestling.
+1
_________________________
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2012 Outback - 2008 Yamaha WR250R v2.0
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#5896849 - 10/31/11 12:25 PM
Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll
[Re: #lodestar]
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UtilityEngineer
Post Master Sr
Registered: 01/14/08
Posts: 4698
Loc: Baltimore
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I feel for your family, my family went through that with my grandfather and it's a terrible thing to experience, though he wasn't any where near as your as your mom.
my answer to the poll is that no, Human life isn't sacred, not in all cases. 200 years ago your mother would have already passed away from other causes, treating her illness only prolongs her suffering and delays the inevitable, and as terrible as it is to think of, all of the pain, suffering, and anguish will only be relieved by her passing. law makers will never sponsor bills to allow families to do the right thing for their loved ones, because (usually) christian churches make lots of noise to the contrary (and spend lots of money).
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#5896854 - 10/31/11 12:27 PM
Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll
[Re: M]
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scootergeek
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 07/24/00
Posts: 46248
Loc: East of St. Louis
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Sactity of Life means that life (a live body) must be kept alive at all costs, regardless of the quality of life being led or the wishes of the person whose life it is.
So yeah, I'd say they're mutually exclusive. If that's the definition we're working off then I don't believe in the sanctity of life.
Yep. I feel sorry for your mom's situation, Adam.
_________________________
Still pissy after all these years...
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#5896855 - 10/31/11 12:27 PM
Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll
[Re: 240sx805]
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Cheesegoggles
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 07/10/08
Posts: 19073
Loc: Here
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That sounds awful. I know I'd seen you mention the situation before but did not realize it was this dire.
Your poll is tough for me to answer. I would generally agree with the second option - that I believe in the sanctity of human life and am not religious. But, IMO, there is more to life (and to human life, in particular) than taking breaths, having a heartbeat, or having detectable electrical activity in the brain. Your mother, as you have described, is not living. All that is really left is a shell.
I don't really know what the answer is, but I would agree that this type of situation would be an appropriate one for finding some other means for ending her suffering.
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#5896873 - 10/31/11 12:31 PM
Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll
[Re: ]
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#lodestar
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 42768
Loc: Not in Kansas anymore
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Sactity of Life means that life (a live body) must be kept alive at all costs, regardless of the quality of life being led or the wishes of the person whose life it is.
So yeah, I'd say they're mutually exclusive.
please don't troll here.
I wonder if the member who just had his wife pass from Huntingtons will share his thoughts.
I kinda feel like the soul is something bound to a body. Once that body starts to go the soul can be trapped there. That is why you see so much frustration and sadness when they cannot communicate with their loved ones or when they can't maintain a basic standard of living.
Edited by ednksu (10/31/11 12:38 PM)
Edit Reason: correct condition, apologies
_________________________
I take no joy in owning you people like this anymore. Now I just feel like I'm teaching a retarded class & doing God's work." -Napoleon complex things
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#5896880 - 10/31/11 12:33 PM
Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll
[Re: #lodestar]
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Adam G
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 06/07/00
Posts: 59300
Loc: Arrr-Kansas
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I wonder if the member who just had his wife pass from Parkinson's will share his thoughts.
It was Huntington's Disease. My cousin's husband has that. Symptoms haven't really set in yet, but that's a brutal way to die too.
I kinda feel like the soul is something bound to a body. Once that body starts to go the soul can be trapped there. That is why you see so much frustration and sadness when they cannot communicate with their loved ones or when they can't maintain a basic standard of living.
That's basically what's happening.
Thanks for the kind words, all.
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#5897095 - 10/31/11 01:33 PM
Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll
[Re: JuliesmkVI]
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Back 5
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 18123
Loc: CA
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Tuesday With Morrie is a great read, given the subject matter.
I believe in the sanctity of a human life and I would like to allow people every opportunity to survive and live. However, there are breaking points and at that point I feel that people should be allowed to pass with dignity.
Modern medicine can extend life to a point where its no longer in the patients best interest.
One of the worst things watching my Grandfather suffer were the flashes of lucid thought that would pop out of the haze. In one moment we are trying to restrain him from throwing furniture out the window because his bunk is on fire (I think this was a WWII flashback) and in the next instant he is asking me if I think having his old Chevy Celebrity would help me.
How do we know when the end is the end for them?
I really hope your mom finds peace soon Adam
_________________________
RIP Morgann 2004-2010. Enjoy Doggie Heaven If at first you do succeed, try something harder. When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.
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#5897107 - 10/31/11 01:36 PM
Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll
[Re: #lodestar]
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Philabong
Philabong
Unregistered
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Sactity of Life means that life (a live body) must be kept alive at all costs, regardless of the quality of life being led or the wishes of the person whose life it is.
So yeah, I'd say they're mutually exclusive. please don't troll here. I wonder if the member who just had his wife pass from Huntingtons will share his thoughts. I kinda feel like the soul is something bound to a body. Once that body starts to go the soul can be trapped there. That is why you see so much frustration and sadness when they cannot communicate with their loved ones or when they can't maintain a basic standard of living.
How would you define it?
This is the meaning I've gleaned from any "Sanctity of Life" argument I've ever heard.
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#5897201 - 10/31/11 01:59 PM
Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll
[Re: Platinum Tex]
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ElectronVTEC2
Post Master Sr
Registered: 07/10/08
Posts: 5915
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Wow, I was just about to make a *very* similar post. My wife's grandmother is in the final stages of lung cancer. She is confined a bed in her living room, with loved ones and Hospice taking care of her. She is by all rights dead to this world, however her and her family have to watch her starve to death in order to escape this cruel punishment. This was a good woman (she did not smoke, for anyone thinking this is somehow self-inflicted) who does not deserve this end. I wish for nothing more than mercy for her and the family, as it is tearing everyone apart right now. Why do we allow people - when no positive outcome is remotely possible - to suffer until the end. She is on high dosages of morphine, but even then you can't tell me she is any form of "happy" or "content" to die this way. It's sickening to me.
For anyone who wants to know what I truly think is the right way, look up "Brompton Cocktail" by Avenged Sevenfold. I believe we as humans have a right to choose our time, that no divine intervention does so for us, and we are allowed to go out on our own terms. Now, I am not advocating suicide by any means, but this (and Jimmy Sullivan of A7X) is far from suicide, or "quitting." It's an escape from a life of pain and suffering.
Todd
_________________________
2011 Edge (Wife's appliance) EVO IX MR, minor mods 
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#5897224 - 10/31/11 02:09 PM
Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll
[Re: Colon_Cleaner]
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Dope!
Major Member
Registered: 01/30/11
Posts: 1346
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No way to have the nursing home give her some morphine for the "pain"?
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#5897225 - 10/31/11 02:10 PM
Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll
[Re: Platinum Tex]
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NOHC
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 09/18/01
Posts: 39093
Loc: Lebanon, Virginia
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Damn Adam, that's rough...I know, I went through it with my paternal grandmother, there were days when she wouldn't recognize any of us, and those little bits & shards of what she used to be, and what she could remember, just seemed to depress us even more, because they were so few and far between. Maybe it was just me being selfish, wanting grandma back, but at the same time, it literally drove us all just as mad as she had been to see her like that.
That being said...I wouldn't want to live like that...but at the same time, I'm a gigantic wussy, and scared of dying. I guess you could say I believe in the sanctity of my own life...keep me alive at all costs. I'm just not strong enough to make that choice for myself, but for a loved one, maybe I'd leave it up to someone with bigger balls than me, ask for input, advice, whatever...
_________________________
-Mike-
***Ask me about your broken 360/PS3***
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#5897252 - 10/31/11 02:22 PM
Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll
[Re: Dope!]
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Fastfed
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 12/08/03
Posts: 26879
Loc: Back in Sunny S.FL
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No way to have the nursing home give her some morphine for the "pain"?
It's usually not physical pain, so not much can be done..
Alzheimer's disease is probably one of the worst people can get in terms of common diseases.. It's torture to everyone, including the patient..
I don't think we should be able to kill them though..
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