#51107 - 07/20/04 01:44 AM
Re: New invention by Körbach wants Drivers to test product
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georgelb
Jr Member
Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 428
Loc: Arlington, TX
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The form is not working...guess I will mail mine in?
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#51108 - 07/20/04 04:41 PM
Re: New invention by Körbach wants Drivers to test product
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EF8_Fan
Poster
Registered: 01/24/03
Posts: 220
Loc: Full Race, AZ
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How hard is the install? How long does it take? Does this improve anything at the drag strip such as 60's or traction, or is this mainly for autocross and cornering? How long is this test offer good for?
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#51110 - 07/20/04 07:32 PM
Re: New invention by Körbach wants Drivers to test product
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B18Csi
Jr Poster
Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 166
Loc: Florida
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I am not into auto-x or twisty turny type driving. My car is built to go fast in a straight line. I attend hows from High School car shows to regional type events. I definitely see alot of ppl and see alot of cars. I would love to test the product on the car to test its ability to lessen the effects of wheel hop in hard launch situations.
I went to your application but the questrions you had that were solely centered around suspension upgrades kinda spooked me away. My suspension upgrades are nothing to speak of as most all the work has been focused on the powerplant so far.
Let me know if you are even interested at giving me a shot at testing these FrameLocks. I like the idea and the product looks to be of good quality.
I do have mixed emotions about the you guys supplying the drills. Anyone with mechanical knowhow would surely have a drill index of their own and doesnt that increase the cost of the kit? Just my .02 But on the flipside it does show your attention to detail and THAT alone says alot about the product.
Let Me Know.
_________________________
AOL IM: aloishus27
2000 EBP Si
405FWHP
Built by Steven, and Andres at Pacific Performance
www.pacificperformance.com
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#51112 - 07/22/04 09:11 AM
Re: New invention by Körbach wants Drivers to test product
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samkarp
Post Master Sr
Registered: 02/11/00
Posts: 5807
Loc: Milwaukee WI
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Quote:
this product Street Mod legal in autox? hey Sammy, run that through the rule book. maybe i'll get one
Quote:
Very interesting product, but I'm unsure of it's legality for STS / STX autocross classes.
The rule book allows connecting upper and lower suspension components laterally (from left to right across the car) to each other, but does not allow cross bracing or triangulation. In fact 14.8 (h) specifically forbids any modifications to the frame or unibody other than those needed to attach strut bars. Even Street Mod is doubtful: Section 16.1 (g) forbids the lateral connection of two longitudinal frame rails.
I would be willing to test the product if I could be convinced that it is STX class legal...
Sorry guys, not ST, SP or SM legal. Bumps you right to Prepared or for Rob and I right into DM. I did the research already as I will do anything to our Si to get the steering to improve! 17.2.B is the first mention of a modification like this. Darno. And no Rob, we are not going to cheat!
_________________________
~Sam Karp~
SCCA-Milwaukee
"Autocrossers always make good road racers, but road racers do not always make good autocrossers."-T.C. Kline
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#51115 - 07/26/04 01:59 AM
Re: New invention by Körbach wants Drivers to test product
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Solid_Ride
Jr Poster
Registered: 07/16/04
Posts: 102
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WHAT DOES IT DO AND WHY DOES IT WORK…. TIEING TO THE BUMPER BEAM
When the Frame Locks are installed to you car, it will do two things. Both are pretty dramatic. Below are my long winded semi technical explanations. Sorry if it is long winded. I hope this clarifies….In the end, I hope that people will believe their fellow club member Korbach Testers and the article in September’s Honda Tuning enough to take a chance on buying our product. It’s risk free and if customers don’t like it, they can return it for a full refund.
1) HANDLING AND STEERING RESPONSE IS IMPROVED. So when you make a quick lane change on the freeway, the car will respond quicker. Without the Frame Locks, there will be a slight delay from the moment the steering wheel is turned until the car actually starts to turn. It’s a fraction of a second, but it is very perceivable. If you are on a curved entrance ramp, the car will corner better and you will be able to take the turn faster about 5- 10 mph. Another example is if you are driving down a back road at 35 mph and decide to make a sharp 90 degree turn into another street, the car will not understeer as nearly much. The front outside corner will not squat down and the car will respond much better. It will go where you point it. This particular attribute was demonstrated to Bob Hernandez at Honda Tuning magazine and he actually bursted out laughing in disbelief.
WHY IS HANDLING AND STEERING RESPONSE IMPROVED? Answer is that no matter if the car has a base set up, sway bars, low profile tires, lowered/sports suspension, the Frame Locks will make additional improvements. I realize these are big claims. It works because fundamentally the tires & suspensions must work off the chassis or body structure. If the chassis is soft and flexes in handling conditions, this will result in a lagged steering response and a reshifting of momentum when the car is turned. Visualize your car going into a sharp turn. When this occurs, it puts a front lateral (side) load to your tires. Your tires will scrub to the side. The lateral load of the tires translates to a lateral load to the suspension which in turns translates a lateral load to the chassis (or the unit body structure). If the lateral stiffness of the front end is weak, it will flex. The time it takes to flex results in a lagged response. So you turn sharply, the frame flexes then it decides to make the turn. Our Frame Locks utilizes the bumper beam as a load bearing structure. By improving the jointing to the bumper beam, the lateral stiffness is increased resulting in less flexing. The current architecture relys on the lower tie bar or radiator support. But that structural piece is at a lower elevation than the front rails. So the load path takes a zig zag which is very inefficient. In addition, the fore/aft section property of the tie bar is very thin. By tieing into the bumper beam, it unifies the entire front structure together. Since the bumper beam is at the same elevation or the same plane of action, it is more efficient…architecturally speaking. Many other performance cars have stiff attachments to the bumper beam. The Corvette is one of them. Race cars also have stiff chassis. It’s not always about the suspension. You need both.
2) THE RIDE IS IMPROVED. This is a hard one to explain because it involves human responses to a complex wave form. You could say that is it subjective, but not in the sense that abstract art is subjective. This truly is night and day. The car feels solid and smooth. It does not feel like an economy car any more. It actually feels more expensively made. This is the feeling you get when you ride a BMW for example. If the car has been lowered, often the ride is very harsh. It feels like it crashes or bottoms out over harsh roads. With the Frame Locks installed, the kidney busting ride will be erased. It is especially noticeable on rail road crossings. The car has a more confident feel to it. No more nervous jittery ride.
WHY IS THE RIDE IMPROVED? Answer is a multiple of reasons. One is that since the unit body is stiffer, it allows the suspension to do what it is designed to do. As you drive over bumpy roads, the suspension responds in a vertical manner. It has a certain random wave form. In addition, the body responds to the suspension and vibrates. The net effect the driver and occupants feel is a composite of both those wave forms added together. If you remember some physics, you may recall that when you have two degrees of freedom, the net accelerations are additive when the wave forms are in phase or in synch. With the Frame Locks in place, the wave form of the body is reduced and the additive effect is actually much less at certain frequencies. The response would feel less jagged and more rounded. It almost feels like someone rounded off the sharp edges of the road with a file. Another reason the ride is improved is since the 500 lb engine is rubber mounted to the front frame, the effects of it bouncing is felt by the driver and occupants. Since the Frame will be stiffer with the Frame Locks in place, the effect of the engine shaking will be further isolated. Isolation is a function of the difference in mobility or stiffness of the isolated material and what it is mounted to. This is classic vibration theory. The last reason why the ride is improved is that since the bumper is cantilevered at the end point of the car, it’s vibration as bumpy roads are driven is actually amplified back to the cabin. The cantilever effect multiples the force transmitted to the cabin. This is very mush like a small amount of force exerted on the long end of a crow bar results in a large amount of force at the short end of the crow bar. The same is true dynamically as well as statically.
Hope this helps
David Lawson
Korbach Performance
“Building the Perfect Ride”
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#51116 - 07/26/04 02:07 AM
Re: New invention by Körbach wants Drivers to test product
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Solid_Ride
Jr Poster
Registered: 07/16/04
Posts: 102
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WHAT DOES IT DO AND WHY DOES IT WORK…. TIEING TO THE BUMPER BEAM
When the Frame Locks are installed to you car, it will do two things. Both are pretty dramatic. Below are my long winded semi technical explanations. Sorry if it is long winded.
1) HANDLING AND STEERING RESPONSE IS IMPROVED. So when you make a quick lane change on the freeway, the car will respond quicker. Without the Frame Locks, there will be a slight delay from the moment the steering wheel is turned until the car actually starts to turn. It’s a fraction of a second, but it is very perceivable. If you are on a curved entrance ramp, the car will corner better and you will be able to take the turn faster about 5- 10 mph. Another example is if you are driving down a back road at 35 mph and decide to make a sharp 90 degree turn into another street, the car will not understeer as nearly much. The front outside corner will not squat down and the car will respond much better. It will go where you point it. This particular attribute was demonstrated to Bob Hernandez at Honda Tuning magazine and he actually bursted out laughing in disbelief.
WHY IS HANDLING AND STEERING RESPONSE IMPROVED? Answer is that no matter if the car has a base set up, sway bars, low profile tires, lowered/sports suspension, the Frame Locks will make additional improvements. I realize these are big claims. It works because fundamentally the tires & suspensions must work off the chassis or body structure. If the chassis is soft and flexes in handling conditions, this will result in a lagged steering response and a reshifting of momentum when the car is turned. Visualize your car going into a sharp turn. When this occurs, it puts a front lateral (side) load to your tires. Your tires will scrub to the side. The lateral load of the tires translates to a lateral load to the suspension which in turns translates a lateral load to the chassis (or the unit body structure). If the lateral stiffness of the front end is weak, it will flex. The time it takes to flex results in a lagged response. So you turn sharply, the frame flexes then it decides to make the turn. Our Frame Locks utilizes the bumper beam as a load bearing structure. By improving the jointing to the bumper beam, the lateral stiffness is increased resulting in less flexing. The current architecture relys on the lower tie bar or radiator support. But that structural piece is at a lower elevation than the front rails. So the load path takes a zig zag which is very inefficient. In addition, the fore/aft section property of the tie bar is very thin. By tieing into the bumper beam, it unifies the entire front structure together. Since the bumper beam is at the same elevation or the same plane of action, it is more efficient…architecturally speaking. Many other performance cars have stiff attachments to the bumper beam. The Corvette is one of them. Race cars also have stiff chassis. It’s not always about the suspension. You need both.
2) THE RIDE IS IMPROVED This is a hard one to explain because it involves human responses to a complex wave form. You could say that is it subjective, but not in the sense that abstract art is subjective. This truly is night and day. The car feels solid and smooth. It does not feel like an economy car any more. It actually feels more expensively made. This is the feeling you get when you ride a BMW for example. If the car has been lowered, often the ride is very harsh. It feels like it crashes or bottoms out over harsh roads. With the Frame Locks installed, the kidney busting ride will be erased. It is especially noticeable on rail road crossings. The car has a more confident feel to it. No more nervous jittery ride.
WHY IS THE RIDE IMPROVED Answer is a multiple of reasons. One is that since the unit body is stiffer, it allows the suspension to do what it is designed to do. As you drive over bumpy roads, the suspension responds in a vertical manner. It has a certain random wave form. In addition, the body responds to the suspension and vibrates. The net effect the driver and occupants feel is a composite of both those wave forms added together. If you remember some physics, you may recall that when you have two degrees of freedom, the net accelerations are additive when the wave forms are in phase or in synch. With the Frame Locks in place, the wave form of the body is reduced and the additive effect is actually much less at certain frequencies. The response would feel less jagged and more rounded. It almost feels like someone rounded off the sharp edges of the road with a file. Another reason the ride is improved is since the 500 lb engine is rubber mounted to the front frame, the effects of it bouncing is felt by the driver and occupants. Since the Frame will be stiffer with the Frame Locks in place, the effect of the engine shaking will be further isolated. Isolation is a function of the difference in mobility or stiffness of the isolated material and what it is mounted to. This is classic vibration theory. The last reason why the ride is improved is that since the bumper is cantilevered at the end point of the car, it’s vibration as bumpy roads are driven is actually amplified back to the cabin. The cantilever effect multiples the force transmitted to the cabin. This is very mush like a small amount of force exerted on the long end of a crow bar results in a large amount of force at the short end of the crow bar. The same is true dynamically as well as statically.
Hope this helps
David Lawson
Korbach Performance
“Building the Perfect Ride”
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#51117 - 07/26/04 02:20 AM
Re: New invention by Körbach wants Drivers to test product
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Solid_Ride
Jr Poster
Registered: 07/16/04
Posts: 102
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Quote:
Very interesting product, but I'm unsure of it's legality for STS / STX autocross classes.
The rule book allows connecting upper and lower suspension components laterally (from left to right across the car) to each other, but does not allow cross bracing or triangulation. In fact 14.8 (h) specifically forbids any modifications to the frame or unibody other than those needed to attach strut bars. Even Street Mod is doubtful: Section 16.1 (g) forbids the lateral connection of two longitudinal frame rails.
That aside, anything that stiffens up the chassis is good, and this product appears to do this by closing the "U" at the front structure of the car. This should result in more torsional rigidity (resitance to twisting). Makes sense that steering response would improve, and you can probably guess from the prohibitions in the SCCA rule book that it confers a big advantage to do this.
I wonder if the increased stiffness might increase transitional understeer. Might also compromise front end impact safety by compromising the front crumple zone through directly coupling the bumper beam to the frame.
I would be willing to test the product if I could be convinced that it is STX class legal...
Closing the U at the front structure hits the nail right on the head. The Frame Locks could be deactivated for autocrossing if it is violation. A few bolts need to be loosened and taped up to not fall out. It is pretty quick and simple.
On the crumple zone question. The left Frame Lock for example weighs about 10 ounces and is designed to be an open section allowing the part to buckle. It is designed to be stiff laterally, but to buckle in a frontal impact. The part is about 7" long whereas the front frame is about 48" long and the car weighs about 2600 lbs. You have to use some judgement as to whether a small part will make an appreciable difference. In addition, stiffening the frontal stiffness is actually better for high speed impact as it deters engine intrusion. Other cars do have stiff bumper attachments. The Corvette is one examples as well as some European cars.
David Lawson
Korbach Performance
"Building the Perfect Ride"
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#51118 - 07/26/04 02:23 AM
Re: New invention by Körbach wants Drivers to test product
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Solid_Ride
Jr Poster
Registered: 07/16/04
Posts: 102
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Quote:
I think seeing some actualy numbers would help for those that are still on the fence. I guess I'll have to watch out for that article that's supposed to come out.
Getting the numbers will take some time. The article will come out. I am banking on it. If it does not come out, I lose total credibility. I encourage people that are on the fence to wait for the article and the product reviews of the Korbach Testers.
David Lawson
Korbach Performance
"Building the Perfect Ride"
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#51119 - 07/26/04 02:24 AM
Re: New invention by Körbach wants Drivers to test product
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Solid_Ride
Jr Poster
Registered: 07/16/04
Posts: 102
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Quote:
The form is not working...guess I will mail mine in?
Sorry about that, we've had some problems and it is fixed now.
David Lawson
Korbach Performance
"Building the Perfect Ride"
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#51120 - 07/26/04 02:31 AM
Re: New invention by Körbach wants Drivers to test product
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Solid_Ride
Jr Poster
Registered: 07/16/04
Posts: 102
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Quote:
I am not into auto-x or twisty turny type driving. My car is built to go fast in a straight line. I attend hows from High School car shows to regional type events. I definitely see alot of ppl and see alot of cars. I would love to test the product on the car to test its ability to lessen the effects of wheel hop in hard launch situations.
I went to your application but the questrions you had that were solely centered around suspension upgrades kinda spooked me away. My suspension upgrades are nothing to speak of as most all the work has been focused on the powerplant so far.
Let me know if you are even interested at giving me a shot at testing these FrameLocks. I like the idea and the product looks to be of good quality.
I do have mixed emotions about the you guys supplying the drills. Anyone with mechanical knowhow would surely have a drill index of their own and doesnt that increase the cost of the kit? Just my .02 But on the flipside it does show your attention to detail and THAT alone says alot about the product.
Let Me Know.
The product really is for ride handling only. I don't hink it will help wheel hop.
I agree with the drill bits, but once we tried drilling with dull drill bits and it was very very difficult. It took us minutes and afterwards we were really sore. It was very frustrating. Since we are launching the product, I didn't want customers drill bits to result in bad reviews and cast doubt on our reputation. The 5/8" drill bit with a 3/8" shank was the most expensive bit at $ 10 wholesale. It increases the cost a little, but assures good install. Most people don't have the 5/8". We talked about making it an option, but for now, we just through it in at our expense of profit. It is important that this launches well as this sets the tone and ground work for other cars we are aching to develop. Even the packaging is very nice.
Thanks for your interest.
David Lawson
Korbach Performance
"Building the Perfect Ride"
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#51121 - 07/26/04 02:33 AM
Re: New invention by Körbach wants Drivers to test product
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Solid_Ride
Jr Poster
Registered: 07/16/04
Posts: 102
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Quote:
Quote:
this product Street Mod legal in autox? hey Sammy, run that through the rule book. maybe i'll get one
Quote:
Very interesting product, but I'm unsure of it's legality for STS / STX autocross classes.
The rule book allows connecting upper and lower suspension components laterally (from left to right across the car) to each other, but does not allow cross bracing or triangulation. In fact 14.8 (h) specifically forbids any modifications to the frame or unibody other than those needed to attach strut bars. Even Street Mod is doubtful: Section 16.1 (g) forbids the lateral connection of two longitudinal frame rails.
I would be willing to test the product if I could be convinced that it is STX class legal...
Sorry guys, not ST, SP or SM legal. Bumps you right to Prepared or for Rob and I right into DM. I did the research already as I will do anything to our Si to get the steering to improve! 17.2.B is the first mention of a modification like this. Darno. And no Rob, we are not going to cheat!
You can always deactivate the Frame Locks by loosening the bolts and tapping it down so it doesn't fall off.
David Lawson
Korbach Performance
"Building the Perfect Ride"
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#51122 - 07/26/04 03:05 AM
Re: New invention by Körbach wants Drivers to test product
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97Y8T
Post Master Sr
Registered: 07/10/02
Posts: 8676
Loc: Kenya
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#51123 - 07/26/04 10:48 AM
Re: New invention by Körbach wants Drivers to test product
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M12
Sr Member
Registered: 07/13/00
Posts: 1014
Loc: Torrance, CA
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Quote:
Tough crowd, eh?  http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=928139
Very tough crowd, but once you get a bandwagon going, its going to be big there.
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#51126 - 07/27/04 01:43 AM
Re: New invention by Körbach wants Drivers to test product
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Solid_Ride
Jr Poster
Registered: 07/16/04
Posts: 102
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Quote:
Tough crowd, eh? http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=928139
Yes. Part of it is my fault for not responding to their concerns. One day, they will realize that our product is a good. I picked Si Racer (founder of Clubsi) and 2 moderators to be Korbach Testers. When they print their reviews, hopefully they will be credible.
David Lawson
Korbach Performance
"Building the Perfect Ride"
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#51127 - 07/27/04 11:53 PM
Re: New invention by Körbach wants Drivers to test product
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UH8inOKI
Jr Member
Registered: 02/10/01
Posts: 594
Loc: AZ
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UH8 has applied and has been selected to also participate in the Korbach test. Woohoo. That aside, let me assure you all that in my conversations thus far with the folks at Korbach; I beleive that they are a stand up company. I had a chance to really feel them out I think you can trust them.
I should receive my frame locks Friday (Go UPS!) and will be taking them on a LOOOONG test drive this Sunday through Southern AZ along with several other car enthusiasts.
I will post my thoughts on the product.
Joshua
_________________________
AKA UH8MYVTEC
Founding Member:
Club Own Rick King
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#51130 - 08/04/04 08:27 AM
Re: New invention by Körbach wants Drivers to test product
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CivicRacerExR
Post Master Sr
Registered: 11/05/99
Posts: 8856
Loc: Landisville, PA, USA
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Not to be a jerk again, but I'm surprised I didn't get picked to try out the product since I autocross ALOT 
_________________________
Sponsored by: KAM Racing Sports, Falken Tires, Progress Technology, Brady's High Performance, Taggart Performance Engineering, Rotora Brakes Autocross is: 90% driver, 5% car, & 5% CRAZY MOJO!Autocross Help PageBuy my Civic parts!
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#51131 - 08/04/04 02:54 PM
Re: New invention by Körbach wants Drivers to test product
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Solid_Ride
Jr Poster
Registered: 07/16/04
Posts: 102
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Quote:
Has anyone read the legal disclaimers for the product? Should one be concerned about the statements it says the frame locks can possibly do in case of accidents, false airbag deployment etc?
I have to be careful how I answer this and will talk to my legal counsel. I will comment more later. This is a sensitive area. But I will give you some thoughts for now:
1) On the false air bag deployment. Anytime you change the stiffness to the chassis, it alters the crash performance. Whether or not it is significant is a different matter. Our product is forward of the suspension (obviously) and hitting a pot hole would drive the forces back to the sensor. Since out product is forward of the suspension, it should not make any difference. That being said, as responsible engineers we didn't want to assume that ....so we to tested it at a high cost. We measured the fore aft acceleration at the sensor (below the radio) driving over a pot hole. We did that with and without the Frame Locks there. The difference in response was 3 % which could be measurement error or driving over the pot hole at slightly different speeds. In addition the acceleration pulse had a peak to peak acceleration change of 3 1/2 g's and the duration of the pulse was 3.5 milliseconds. An air bag sensor will decide to deploy when it peaks (in general) to 12 - 15 g's and it has to see that response for 12- 15 milliseconds. Our response was well below that. One of the Clubsi members participated in this. His user name is Hermanator. He can verify our claims.
2) Now a days disclaimers are much more prevalant then they were 20 years ago and I think people know the reasons. Most disclaimers if people read them are intimidating, but it does not absolve the company of guilt. They can still lose. So even with an iron clad product, things happen and that is the risk of business whether it is an automotive product, medications, child products etc.
3) Many after market products have disclaimers, if they don't, they should. Many do not because it hurts sales. We are not afraid of that. If someone has any reservations, then I say do not buy. And that is true for other products such as suspension tie bars, H braces, traction bars, lowering etc.
4) In real life praticality, A Civic is a small car and not as good in crash as larger cars and whether or not the car collides with a Hummer or a Neon makes a big difference also. These real life variations in crash likely exceeds the affects of most after market products.
5) More to come.....
David
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#51132 - 08/04/04 03:02 PM
Re: New invention by Körbach wants Drivers to test product
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Solid_Ride
Jr Poster
Registered: 07/16/04
Posts: 102
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Quote:
Not to be a jerk again, but I'm surprised I didn't get picked to try out the product since I autocross ALOT
No you're not being a jerk. I'd be dissappointed too if I were not selected. I am sorry. I didn't want this activity to cause ill feelings. We had many applicants and I wanted to select people that were moderators, racers, car club leaders etc. I also selected friends of the original Beta testers as a courtesy and appreciation for their participation. Actually, some of these original Beta testers people got early prototypes for free! And we installed them.
We had an ovewhelming response and we only had a few slots and that's what we did.
If you want one, you can buy one when it comes out. Our promo price of $ 195 is a great deal for what it does to the car. The promo price is good until Oct 1st. The retail is $ 245.
Sorry
David Lawson
Korbach Performance
"Building the Perfect Ride"
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#51133 - 08/04/04 03:41 PM
Re: New invention by Körbach wants Drivers to test product
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CivicRacerExR
Post Master Sr
Registered: 11/05/99
Posts: 8856
Loc: Landisville, PA, USA
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Nope no hard feelings I'm actually looking forward to the write up and other people's comments on this item.
I know it's not STS legal, but I never said my car is going to be STS next year
_________________________
Sponsored by: KAM Racing Sports, Falken Tires, Progress Technology, Brady's High Performance, Taggart Performance Engineering, Rotora Brakes Autocross is: 90% driver, 5% car, & 5% CRAZY MOJO!Autocross Help PageBuy my Civic parts!
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#51134 - 08/04/04 06:31 PM
Re: New invention by Körbach wants Drivers to test product
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Runnin@Redline Jr
Post Master Sr
Registered: 11/02/99
Posts: 9480
Loc: Midwest Eh?
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#51136 - 08/22/04 11:34 AM
Re: New invention by Körbach wants Drivers to test product
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ihopcvcc
Post Master Sr
Registered: 10/23/01
Posts: 18319
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You know, I was thinking about it, wondering why Honda would design the bumper beam brackets as weak as they did, from the factory, then it struck me: how do you think frame locks will affect your car in the event of a front-end collision?
I'm thinking the OEM part is purposely weak to absorb the impact in a collision, so I'm wondering how the installation of frame locks would change the amount of damage in an accident. I'm not looking for ways to malign the product, this is just a concern I thought about.
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Moderator: Huggy, Runnin@Redline Jr, Professor Paki
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-Rookie of the year -
2004 Championship Series SCCA Cal Club LA Solo 2
oh yeah, turn in is great 
