I took my POSDSM down to Annapolis to try out some E85. Being a scaredy cat I only put in 12 gallons to 4 gallons of gasoline that was left in the car. I figured I could limp around if the car hated the E85. So I adjusted the global on my injectors real quick to compensate for the E85 mix and checked the wideband as well as the fuel trims.
My car has a slight overheating issue. I think this junkyard shortblock that I picked up last fall is clogged with minerals or something because its been like this since the "new" motor. The E85 takes about 10 degrees out of my coolant temps and I can actually drive around without the cooling fans on or the pheer of getting caught in a traffic jam.
After the E85 had a chance to mix in my tank I was on 97 north and a jackass in one of those charger RT's or something (all I saw was the red R/T badge) found it necessary to run up on my ass at 90 mph to slow down to my 55mph cruise in the right lane. Who does that, pass in the fast lane jackoff, I'm just trying to be legal for once. So after a few seconds I decide to give the new fuel a shot. Coolant temps were in check, reached over and clicked the logger button, snicked third, and gave he hell at about 60mph. The origional wheel/tires off my Evo complain a little bit but settle down at 75mph and I run her up to 110mph. No knock, no misfires, just pulling clean to redline. Coolant temps are in check.
I hope we can come up with a better way to make this stuff as it is a really good high performance street fuel with no lead.
Very interested in your outcome on this. How does the wideband and stock o2 sensor read? Also how much your mileage changes? Right now E85 cost more than 91oct here, but once the cost is lower and have more available stations I am really tempted to swap my cars to it.
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98 C5 (White Trash), Twin Turdbo by Jon. 70 Camaro RS/SS (No MSG), 454 for now, LS1 h/c/nitrous on engine stand. 05 STi (Rice Tea eye), Rice Mawds only. 04 CTS-v (Fat Bastard), Rear Diff exploding mawds.
It was like mid $3 a gallon which is like 50c a gallon cheaper than 93 octane. The stock narrowband sensors on most cars don't give a flying fuck what kind of fuel you use. They cycle *RAPIDLY* around stoichiometric and stoich only. Outside these boundries they fall off in resolution rapidly. Stoich isn't a function of fuel. Its a function of oxygen to fuel content after the combustion event. As such the car will still cycle normally.
The wideband essentially, for all that "you" need to be concerned reads the same. 11:1 is still the same as it was for instance. The difference is that it will take more injector pulsewidth to reach the same AFR so you must have a way to change it post filling up with ethanol else you'll run dangerously lean. You also must have enough spare injector duty cycle left and enough fuel pump to support the extra fuel flow. Also ethanol doesen't mind running rich like gas does. For instance I run my DSM 12.5:1 on race gas and the same on pump gas. I see big gains running this lean (and never lost a motor due to running these AFR's, my motors look great upon teardown actually). However E85 is "lean" at mid 12's, you should be shooting for mid 11's and you'll still make good power. However you can still make good power on ethanol in the bottom 11's, which is where I'm shooting for during my learning curve.
Ethanol is more of a coolant than gasoline is. As such I thin the main benefit for this fuel is in boosted applications. Maybe it will help curb detonation in high compression n/a motors but boy oh boy does it solve a LOT of issues on my dinosaur tech DSM engine because it cools the air charge entering the motor.
Since I did a 75% mix I added 30% to my injectors. IE: straight E85 requires ~40% more fuel. Since I only added 75% E85 I run 75% of 40% which is 30% more fuel. If you have any questions about the math PM me. FYI I'm doing calculations on the SAFE side. I've leaned it out a tick from my calculations.............
I don't think you can give E85 an octane rating an expect to compare it to gas. The fuel is cooling my engine and allowing me to tune in a way that I've always wanted to but never could on pump gas.
I'm pretty sure the ron or whatever of e85 IS 104. I could be wrong, but that's the number I always hear thrown around... The slow-burn of the ethanol makes it burn as if it were 104 octane.
however, having a much lower specific gravity, you need a crap load more of it.
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Craig R. 1999 9-3 Sedan 2000 9-5 Gary Fisher Wagon AIM = gclipse96
I know you need approximately 40% more fuel when running E85. But it also cools the intake temps. Therefore on a 90 degree day my engine is running like it is a 60 degree day tuning wise. So basically its like 104 octane in your car pulling on the top end on a 90 deg day vs a 60 deg day, which one would you take? LOL I don't know about you but I'm conservative all summer long then when the fall comes and I get nicer air temps I get a little *CRAZY*!!!!!!!!!!
I think that E85 corroding fuel systems is mostly a myth. When you mix ethanol with small doses of gasoline the corrosion levels drop drastically. Furthermore most premium fuels are already E10 and have been for almost a decade and nobody has noticed/complained. My DSM, by default, is mostly E85 compliant due to the upgrades that I have done. However I've just ordered 1050cc injectors and a pump for my Evo so that I have the fuel supply to support E85 and I'm confident that I will have no problems on an otherwise stock fuel system.
Registered: 04/16/04
Posts: 7795
Loc: Westchester, NY
Originally Posted By: 420
Have you prepped your fuel system for regular E5 use? That stuff will eat through a stock system fairly aggressively.
Not true at all, this is just a myth. I've had experience running e85 in 20-30+ cars and we've never had any problems with anything corroding.
Originally Posted By: danl
I think that E85 corroding fuel systems is mostly a myth. When you mix ethanol with small doses of gasoline the corrosion levels drop drastically. Furthermore most premium fuels are already E10 and have been for almost a decade and nobody has noticed/complained. My DSM, by default, is mostly E85 compliant due to the upgrades that I have done. However I've just ordered 1050cc injectors and a pump for my Evo so that I have the fuel supply to support E85 and I'm confident that I will have no problems on an otherwise stock fuel system.
E85 is the shit, I'm surprised you didn't try it earlier. My roommate owns a company (CornBredTuning) where all he does is convert turbo cars to e85 and tunes them accordingly. They made 376 whp on a bone stock Honda LS motor (never even opened the valve cover) using e85. They found that not only does it cool better, but it also makes a good amount more torque. And yes, it does require more fuel, but that 40% is really only at WOT. They were noticing mileage drop from around 30 mpg to 24 mpg, which isn't exactly a 40% loss. And considering that e85 out in the midwest is so cheap (2.8x IIRC), it pretty much evens out for them to be the same cost as 93, but with the benefits of race gas. Definitely the way to go if you have it readily available around you.
Registered: 07/29/02
Posts: 8060
Loc: Bellingham, WA
E85 has a lower potential energy content than regular gasoline which is another reason why you need so much more of it. You have to (or 'get' to) run more timing in many areas of your timing map.
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1991 Mazda Miata 1994 Geo Metro
Purdina, I messed with it about 2 months ago when a friend brought over 5 gallons to play with in his car. His dad picked it up for him on his 40 mile commute home one day. It worked ok but leaded 110 was working better so we stopped using it. Now that I'm running a much higher concentration its working even better. I still won't be able to use it as a race fuel as I'm already at 75% duty cycle at only 22psi boost. I'm going to lean out if I crank it to 35psi like I do in the fall at the track so I'll still need the leaded fuel for that. However for the street, I should be able to run 25 psi with straight E85 which is plenty of power to give coworkers a good scare, which is about all I do on the street with this car anymore.
On the evo however will have plenty of fuel with similar size injectors.
I am going to sleep before i actually end up on the 407 with a beer hat, two brava cans, and 6k rpm in 5th with my dick out the window. - Risky Business
Aww, Boo'urns! I live in Annapolis and had i known you were down this way, I would have at least bought you a couple rounds for a ride in that rust bucket of yours!
Where'd you end up getting it from? There's a brand new Shell station that sells it near the mall and a Citgo that sells it right down the street from there (I hear that place has had problems with their pump breaking down w/ E85 in it though)...
Anyway, I keep trying to get my buddies (a few Supra's, turbo Audi's, etc.) to run that stuff and get a tune for it, but they don't want to listen. They have plenty of parts to account for the additional fuel required, but they still would rather just run around w/ race gas on the street
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1994 Ford Mustang Cobra 2003 Honda Civic Si
FCobra, PM me I'll have it down here for the rest of this week. I'm only running 22psi so that I don't do unnecessary wear on the transmission but it still pulls ok. Basically instead of doing rolling burnouts in third gear it will accelerate.
Purdina, the smell is nice. Right now its only E66 due to my calculations and how much gas I had in it, but it smells so much better than it did before.
How does it work in high compression N/A motors? I am looking at new heads for the red car, and if E85 was readily available, and more power could be made using it at 12 or 12.5:1 compression, would consider only running E85 in it.
From what I've read it works well in high compression motors. I am by no means an all motor guy though, I don't know much if anything at all about non boosted motors.
It is a tough decision between swapping in a smaller cam then sending the car to Vegas to have Jon build a rear turbo for it; or spending coin on heads/rockers/intake/throttle body/lid.
But I love the sound of a high compression lumpy V8...
