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#76190 - 02/13/05 08:55 PM need advice what to do b16a2
4sinduct Offline
Jr Member


Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 743
Loc: t.o
i'm just starting to built my motor i need some advice i just brought a 95 integra came with a b16a2(dun ask me why b16) how ever the pistons are toast i;m replacing them with CTR pistons i not sure what else should i do for now since i taking the motor out i want to get everything done at once, anyone have advice ? what sould i do and what number should i expecting? i don't want to spent too much money
what i have in mind
-CTR cams
-skunk2 intake manifold
-cam gears
-itr valve springs or additional springs
can i expect 165whp or so?
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#76191 - 02/13/05 09:35 PM Re: need advice what to do b16a2
tw2000si Offline
Jr Member


Registered: 03/14/02
Posts: 694
Loc: Oxnard,CA
Maybe Hondata or a chipped ecu to get the most out of those cams. Oh and most importantly tunning!!
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#76192 - 02/13/05 10:33 PM Re: need advice what to do b16a2
00Blue Offline
Post Master Sr


Registered: 06/28/02
Posts: 4030
Loc: simi valley CA
no on the hp your expecting. and word of advice. vafc and chipped ecu is terrible compared to hondata. ive had both i can tell you hondata is probably the same price as a vafc plus p28 and its a million times better. i picked up 4 whp and 4 wtq just from upgrading to hondata. i'd say 155-160 whp. for your set up. maybe 160 cuz of the higher comp your gonna have but without head work i doubt any higher
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#76193 - 02/14/05 10:04 AM Re: need advice what to do b16a2
LegoZ 81 Offline
Sr Member


Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 1161
Loc: Richardson, Tx US
www.pgmfi.org all I have to say sign up and start reading the Crome forum, Hondata is great and all but you can spend under $350 and have equally if not more powerful tuning capabilities at your finger tips.
This setup will give similar results to Hondata, and a fraction of the cost and even cheaper than a craptastic VAFC...
Just my honest opinion. The only gain I have to possibly make from this is socketing an ECU for you

My prices fluctuate if you need me to buy the ecu for you. I buy used non-chipped ecu's only and verify 100% functionality, and usually do not handle buying the ecu for you but I will if you want. Usually I can get you a P28 for around $150 dollars, I do not make ANY money off of ecu's I resell for my total cost (purchase price and shipping)

For Dyno tuning: ~45 dollars
Socketing the ECU thru me you provide the ECU $45 including shipping back to you.
Free version of Crome.

For Dyno tuning in real-time: ~$221
Socketing the ECU thru me you provide the ECU $45 including
shipping back to you.
Transtronics EPROM Emulator ~$176 (same unit that you can buy with Hondata)
You will tune off of the plot of AFR on the Dyno sheet.
Free Version of Crome with Real-time programming (saves you from burning chips and swapping over and over...)

Additional hardware needed to street tune: $389
Cable to connect ECU to pc for data logging ~$40 in hardware
Wideband O2 the Cheapest PLX will work. ~$200
Pro Version of Crome with Data logging, AutoTune and DynoTools - $149

BoostTools and ITBtools (map/tps blend for better tuning in the low vacuum ITB Environment) is included in all versions for free! Boost is a $200 option for Hondata



Now for HonData for Dyno tuning by a HD dealer (so you don't have to buy RomEditor v3 this is not real-time, unless dealer has Romulator):
Base s200 system $295

now if you want to be able to tune yourself on the dyno you need to add on:
ROM Editor V3 $200 and you will need a way to burn chips.

for real-time you will need Romulator for $180
For Dyno tuning by dealer: $295
For Dyno tuning in real-time: $675
For Street tuning by yourself in real-time: $875

This does not cover the cost of chipping the ecu which is ECU Socketing $65 (standard shipping) thru Hondata.
Full ECU from Hondata P28 ECU with OBD1 Connector $325

http://www.hondata.com/quicktour.html

Now if I had $900 dollars laying around collecting dust I MIGHT go with Hondata but why when cheaper alternatives are available? I would rather put that $900 toward an Electromotive Tec III instead...

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#76194 - 02/14/05 10:28 AM Re: need advice what to do b16a2
00Blue Offline
Post Master Sr


Registered: 06/28/02
Posts: 4030
Loc: simi valley CA
thats amazing i guess but i was tuned in real time already and i'm quite done with my car. s200 is a complete waste of money imo also considering all the features it has are used by the tuner and not yourself so its pointless not to just get the s100 considering the tunning capabilities are 100% the same. as for your home made uberdata good luck to ya.

i paid about 400 for the hondata, socketing of my p28 and dyno tunning in real time. not a bad deal imo.

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#76195 - 02/14/05 10:39 AM Re: need advice what to do b16a2
LegoZ 81 Offline
Sr Member


Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 1161
Loc: Richardson, Tx US
You should be able to get 160whp with this setup with the CTR Pistons.
'01 spec CTR/ITR (if a deal can be had if not price out Skunk 2 Stage 1's)

ITR intake Valve springs for intake/Si Intake springs for exhaust

flat face valves (.3-.5 bump in compression)

and headwork http://www.dprracing.com if midwest see http://www.rndauto.com

Depending on which is cheaper do ITR or skunk2 intake manifold if you want more peak hp stock manifold is supposed to give better midrange from what I have read/heard.

look at http://forums.clubsi.com/showflat.php?Ca...e=0&fpart=1
for numbers with a simular type of setup.
I am not sure of exact compression ratio with the CTR pistons in a B16 so the valves may not be needed to get you up to the desired compression ratio, you may also be able to do a thinner head gasket but I am not sure whether or not there will be clearance issues.

It seems that order of bottlenecks in air flow ifn the B16A2 are Cams, Intake Manifold/Throttlebody, Head.
www.maxbore.com will bore out the stock TB and can match the Intake manifold if you use stock. I have slight problems with the plate dragging, but have not had a chance to send it back to him yet. a quote from the site "Your throttle body comes back with a limited lifetime warranty on workmanship." The tb is VERY VERY Clean on return you will be amazed!

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#76196 - 02/14/05 10:48 AM Re: need advice what to do b16a2
LegoZ 81 Offline
Sr Member


Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 1161
Loc: Richardson, Tx US
Uberdata and Crome are VERY different products...

Remember Hondata was "homemade" at one point in time.

All great things start small. Crome has already proven itself on the rudamentary level for me allowing me to street tune my Air Fuel. Once I nail down the path of my car, I will Dyno tune with it and I will be posting results

BTW Current pricing from Hondata for S100:
Price Description
$245 s100 system - - speed limiter removed (if applicable), tunable fuel and ignition tables, expanded rpm fuel & ignition tables, VTEC control, adjustable rev limiter and Nitrous Control.

S100 is basically a chip which the Hondata dealer would tune and costs $245+tuning+chipping.

As an individual you can make a bin(file to place on chip) using the free software and have someone with access to a ROM burner burn it for you (I charge $15 including shipping for to burn each additional chip (29C256), if you need a reburn it is free except for shipping, this is provided you ship the chip back to me). If I chip your ECU you get your bin burned for free.

A Crome dealer could tune for you and charge a tuning fee. The cost would be chipping the ecu + tuning only. That gives you a base price of $45 (If I chipped the ECU) in comparison to the base cost of Hondata S100 @ $245.

Just providing a cost comparision...

Hondata has it's place, it is a GREAT setup to use for K-Series engines, IMHO this is the future of Hondata.


Edited by LegoZ 81 (02/14/05 10:59 AM)

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#76197 - 02/14/05 11:10 AM Re: need advice what to do b16a2
4sinduct Offline
Jr Member


Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 743
Loc: t.o
=P i'm in ontario but thanks for all the advice i think i'm will do very little P&P to the head i had very bad experience with p&ps but i'm getting a thinner head gasget as well the CTR piston should come in today as well as the gasget still havent decide what intake manifold to go with but the best one i tried so far is th skunk2 any suggestions?
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#76198 - 02/14/05 11:10 AM Re: need advice what to do b16a2
LegoZ 81 Offline
Sr Member


Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 1161
Loc: Richardson, Tx US
Anyway... the important thing here is you NEED to tune. VAFC is a bandaid IMO.
If you asked me to decide to choose between VAFC and Hondata alone I would recommend Hondata EVERY time with NO exceptions.
Sorry for dumping all this in your thread it is some decent info though. Read info on pgmfi and hondata's site and make an informed descision. That is the most important thing.

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#76199 - 02/14/05 11:12 AM Re: need advice what to do b16a2
LegoZ 81 Offline
Sr Member


Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 1161
Loc: Richardson, Tx US
If you get a thinner head gasket you might want to have the motor clayed to check clearance. There would be nothing worse than to to fire up a new engine break it in and the first time you hit Vtec to eat all the valves.
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#76200 - 02/14/05 11:35 AM Re: need advice what to do b16a2
4sinduct Offline
Jr Member


Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 743
Loc: t.o
yep i will go with hondata i guess. I still have a vafc2 from my old civic should i sell it and use the $$$ for hondata + a cheaper vtec controller?
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#76201 - 02/14/05 12:20 PM Re: need advice what to do b16a2
00Blue Offline
Post Master Sr


Registered: 06/28/02
Posts: 4030
Loc: simi valley CA
with hondata you don't need a vtec controller. its a vafc and chipped ecu all in one. you shouldn't be adjusting what the dyno tunner set your settings at anyway so vtec control is pointless.

as far as clearance issues. with ctr cams you can mill the head without worring about clearance as long as you don't go to much. i'm milled 015 with a spoon gasket and i clear my stage 1's no prob. and bad P&P experience is because whoever did the work for you sucked. alaniz tech. does wonderful work if ya wanna look them up.

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#76202 - 02/14/05 01:07 PM Re: need advice what to do b16a2
LegoZ 81 Offline
Sr Member


Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 1161
Loc: Richardson, Tx US
Blue so even with the CTR pistons, the thinner HG will be cool and there should not be any contact?
Doesn't the B16B have more Piston-to-Deck Height clearance than the B16A2?

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#76203 - 02/14/05 01:53 PM Re: need advice what to do b16a2
SiCivic99 Offline
Post Master Sr


Registered: 10/29/99
Posts: 4316
Loc: Doesn't matter.
Quote:

Blue so even with the CTR pistons, the thinner HG will be cool and there should not be any contact?
Doesn't the B16B have more Piston-to-Deck Height clearance than the B16A2?




I wouldn't put those CTR's in the B16. Comp is going to be 11.6:1 which is a bit high. If the block has been decked or the head milled then your running pretty high for pump gas. Not to say it can't be done, but its going to be something you need to tune very carefully.

On the other subject. There is no need to run a VAFC along with a chipped P28. The whole point of chipping the P28 is so you can make changes to the program. VAFC = ass. Throw it away. Get Crome and a burner and you will see the exact same results as with Hondata. Problem is people are always afraid of what they can't understand, so they run and jump on the hondata bandwagon.
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97 Type R , 96 EKhatch, 93 CX, 99 FBP Si- All gone
04 WRX, 05 STI, 01 Cobra - All gone
Current - 09 Si sedan

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#76204 - 02/14/05 02:19 PM Re: need advice what to do b16a2
00Blue Offline
Post Master Sr


Registered: 06/28/02
Posts: 4030
Loc: simi valley CA
no i was stating without ctr pistons. milling the head. if you ran the ctr pistons there would be no need to mill the head.
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#76205 - 02/14/05 05:19 PM Re: need advice what to do b16a2
SiCivic99 Offline
Post Master Sr


Registered: 10/29/99
Posts: 4316
Loc: Doesn't matter.
Quote:

no i was stating without ctr pistons. milling the head. if you ran the ctr pistons there would be no need to mill the head.




In my opinion, heads shouldn't be milled just to do it and raise compression. Its the wrong was of accomplishing something. They should be milled when they need to be cleaned up or have damage, but not to bump compression.
_________________________
97 Type R , 96 EKhatch, 93 CX, 99 FBP Si- All gone
04 WRX, 05 STI, 01 Cobra - All gone
Current - 09 Si sedan

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#76206 - 02/14/05 07:30 PM Re: need advice what to do b16a2
00Blue Offline
Post Master Sr


Registered: 06/28/02
Posts: 4030
Loc: simi valley CA
let us all bow down to the best engine builder/tuner/ecu creator in the history of honda tunning because w/e is diff from the way he does it is obviously deadly wrong.

i swear you love confrontation cuz everything out of your mouth about anything any of us say has been negative. chill out and realize theres more then one way to skin a cat.
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"it's a honda.. A/C is like a kill switch"

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#76207 - 02/14/05 08:08 PM Re: need advice what to do b16a2
cruzersi99 Offline
Post Master


Registered: 11/13/99
Posts: 2513
After reading this thread here are my thoughts:.

I've had very good luck with my p28 and VAFC tuning. I've also had very good luck with OEM parts (JDM Header, CTR cams, ITR Valves, ITR manifold). I had great luck with milling my head and with porting. Would I recommend any of this to everyone. NO.

Money, time, knowledge, user preference, and resources played a huge roll in my build up and I think that these factors need to be considered.

When I started my build I knew that I had to pass CA emissions. I had 91 octane to work with. I had limited funds, but a whole lot of resources at my disposal because of where I live. I choose to go with mild parts preferable OEM whenever possible. When I got my p28 and VAFC, hondata s100 and tuning would have cost me an arm and a leg, so it wasn't an option for me. However, I also lucked out because I knew enough people from chatting on the boards to be introduced to a very knowledge tuner, who had enough experience with cars to basically build me a custom program for very cheap. Tuning on the dyno was matter of dialing in ignition timing, cam time, FPR, and some VAFC tweaking was done to take out fuel at various RPM points.


1. I don't see any reason to go with a chipped p28 and VAFC combo ANYMORE. As mentioned before the cost of a P28 plus standard program (Mugen, Spoon, J's, Skunk), harness, and VAFC pretty much puts you very close to Hondata S100.

2. As cool as Uberdata, Chrome, and Hondata S200 and up, are I don't think they are for everyone. Not everyone has the time, nor do they want to become tuners. Certainly , not everyone should have that capability. Some people are good with cars, some aren't. In most cases, i think having all the options to do as you please will actually result in a lot of good people spending extra money as a result of poor tuning/judgement.

2. CTR Pistons + b16a = No bueno in my opinion. Heavy piston, poor shape. Maybe good in on a b16b, or a b18, but not for the b16

3. Milling to gain compression should be heavily researched before doing so simply because it's permanent. Anybody who does enough research, has thought about their build-up from beginning to end, and eventual use of the car (i.e. it's a lease so I'll give it up in 3 years, or I'm going to have this car for the next 10 years) will be able to make a good decision. For those who decide that they can't afford to build the bottom end, don't want to run big cams, then milling is a viable option. It's an easy way to bump compression when done right.

On a b16a I actually like the idea of milling vs. piston work for the purposes of an NA build.

For starters a b16 will never ever be an N/A Monster. Spending $900 on high comp pistons may not result in a very good $ to HP ratio. Additionally, from what I have seen, and from searching various web boards, and talking to tuners, I don't believe that b16s respond well to bigger cams like Toda Bs, Jun IIIs, and the like. So worrying about clearance is not really an issue. I've seen many cars run much milder cams with similar results and more reliability and less maintenance.

Cliff Notes: Before spending money think about what your HP goals, application goals (drag, road race, autocross), and limitations will be. Understanding what your car will be used for will play a major role in what parts to buy.
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186 whp - Church Automotive (Dynapack)
189 whp - Zero Factory (Bosch)

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#76208 - 02/14/05 09:17 PM Re: need advice what to do b16a2
SiCivic99 Offline
Post Master Sr


Registered: 10/29/99
Posts: 4316
Loc: Doesn't matter.
Quote:

let us all bow down to the best engine builder/tuner/ecu creator in the history of honda tunning because w/e is diff from the way he does it is obviously deadly wrong.

i swear you love confrontation cuz everything out of your mouth about anything any of us say has been negative. chill out and realize theres more then one way to skin a cat.




Its not that I like confrontation, its that this place is literally filled with people who think they know it all and post mainly bs. I am not saying I am the one to bring all the answer, I never said I was a master builder, and most importantly, I never said my way was the only way to accomplish something. I did however post my opinion along with why I felt that way, which is a lot more then can be said for the majority of the people on this board. I've been doing this for a long time, built many engines, run many combinations of parts and researched a lot of things in the process. I have learned what I would consider to be a good deal. I think that gives me at least the right to post my opinion, no?


Edited by SiCivic99 (02/14/05 11:31 PM)

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#76209 - 02/14/05 09:19 PM Re: need advice what to do b16a2
SiCivic99 Offline
Post Master Sr


Registered: 10/29/99
Posts: 4316
Loc: Doesn't matter.
Quote:

let us all bow down to the best engine builder/tuner/ecu creator in the history of honda tunning because w/e is diff from the way he does it is obviously deadly wrong.

i swear you love confrontation cuz everything out of your mouth about anything any of us say has been negative. chill out and realize theres more then one way to skin a cat.




And one more thing. You bitched at me and mocked me for my statements. What does the post right under yours say? Looks to me like yet another person who actually learned from trial and error. While he doesn't 100% agree with me, we share the same thoughts on the ECU situation and the CTR pistons. I must not be half the moron you thought after all.


Edited by SiCivic99 (02/14/05 11:32 PM)

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#76210 - 02/14/05 10:27 PM Re: need advice what to do b16a2
4sinduct Offline
Jr Member


Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 743
Loc: t.o
=P i'm getting the head mill as well
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#76211 - 02/14/05 10:42 PM Re: need advice what to do b16a2
b6ixteen Offline
Post Master Jr


Registered: 12/29/04
Posts: 1846
Loc: Florida
Well this seems to be a useful thread cause I was just about ready to purchase a VAFC2, but if there are better stand-alones for less then if would only make sense to seek them out.
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#76212 - 02/14/05 10:59 PM Re: need advice what to do b16a2
00Blue Offline
Post Master Sr


Registered: 06/28/02
Posts: 4030
Loc: simi valley CA
like si civic said ctr pistons aren't that great and if your running them you won't need to mill the head. if you are milling the head you won't need the pistons. i wouldn't run both. ctr pistons and mill the head for fear of low clearance. i would personally do more research before you set in stone a set up. make hp goals, then check around what would help you get there. as said before milling the head is not reversable. but if you know what comp levels you want it can be a viable alternative to the expensive cost of pistons. its entirely up to you.
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#76213 - 02/15/05 10:24 AM Re: need advice what to do b16a2
LegoZ 81 Offline
Sr Member


Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 1161
Loc: Richardson, Tx US
1. I don't see any reason to go with a chipped p28 and VAFC combo ANYMORE. As mentioned before the cost of a P28 plus standard program (Mugen, Spoon, J's, Skunk), harness, and VAFC pretty much puts you very close to Hondata S100.

2. As cool as Uberdata, Chrome, and Hondata S200 and up, are I don't think they are for everyone. Not everyone has the time, nor do they want to become tuners. Certainly , not everyone should have that capability. Some people are good with cars, some aren't. In most cases, i think having all the options to do as you please will actually result in a lot of good people spending extra money as a result of poor tuning/judgement.

You can use Crome for no more than buying a "chip" on ebay none of these "standard programs" properly tune your individual engine. If you don't have the time/knowledge to tune the car or the money to pay someone to tune it then you should not go beyond basic bolt ons as you are not being effective and not getting the advertised gains.

Crome for the basic version (good for dyno tuning if the facility has a wideband) is free.

If you are going to buy a chip/"standard programs" then you can do Crome for $0 dollars more. (meaning you will pay $325 for someone ultra cool RACE ecu or you will have a socketed ecu already at your disposal)
p28's ususally run for around $125 final sale conversion harnesses at most (which is not needed for her car as she is '95) are usually $150 and if I chip it it is $45
so worst case if you are obd II and need all of this you are talking $320 and have a FULLY tunable setup. now if you want to pay the money for the Spoon and Mugen programs go for it but they are most likely pirated so why not dig around and find them yourself?
If anyone wants a comparison between Kenji's tuned Skunk2 P30 chip and a stock JDM P30 lmk I'll post pics. Any other comparision you want send me a copy of the bin (program) off the chip or the physical chip return shipping prepaid and I can read it and post it for you.

Neither VAFC nor a blanket chip is the correct way to tune a car IMO.

VAFC Modifies Map the map signal to the ecu in order to adjust fuel this can result in the ecu running incorrect timing as it does not know the real load on the engine.

Regardless this is still highly debated as producers of AFC's don't want to acknowledge their design flaws as it will cost them sales and continue to aggressive market their products.

Remember knowledge is power.

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#76214 - 02/15/05 11:17 AM Re: need advice what to do b16a2
cruzersi99 Offline
Post Master


Registered: 11/13/99
Posts: 2513
I'm not sure if you are agreeing with me or disagreeing with me....lol...I don't doubt the effectiveness of Crome. From what I know it has it's obvious benifits over Hondata (cost), etc.

I guess I'm not sure on how many people are familiar with how to use it. For someone who has money, but doesn't wish to tune themselves. Then is it a viable option vs. Going to someone to have them tune via Hondata or some other standalone?

Again with all the ECU and tuning options available there is no reason to get a chipped ECU and VAFC.
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186 whp - Church Automotive (Dynapack)
189 whp - Zero Factory (Bosch)

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#76215 - 02/15/05 12:46 PM Re: need advice what to do b16a2
SiCivic99 Offline
Post Master Sr


Registered: 10/29/99
Posts: 4316
Loc: Doesn't matter.
Quote:

I'm not sure if you are agreeing with me or disagreeing with me....lol...I don't doubt the effectiveness of Crome. From what I know it has it's obvious benifits over Hondata (cost), etc.

I guess I'm not sure on how many people are familiar with how to use it. For someone who has money, but doesn't wish to tune themselves. Then is it a viable option vs. Going to someone to have them tune via Hondata or some other standalone?

Again with all the ECU and tuning options available there is no reason to get a chipped ECU and VAFC.




I use Crome and have had nothing but sucess with it. Sure, you have to know a little about what you are doing... but its not that difficult to understand. Without tunning, all this crap people just slap on thier engines isn't doing nearly what it should. You might as well toss the money out the window. As already stated, the base chips like the "Mugen" program and the "Skunk" program, etc will NOT tune your engine. In fact, the majority of the ones you pick up off ebay are hacks. Modified originals, and they run a crapload of fuel.

Bottom line, if you want to learn more about tunning and what makes engines produce power, then it might be worth your time to invest a little into a setup that allows you to burn your own chips and use Crome. Its a nice program and has basically the same features as Hondata does, but at a fraction of the cost. And you might actually learn something in the process of using. God forbid.
_________________________
97 Type R , 96 EKhatch, 93 CX, 99 FBP Si- All gone
04 WRX, 05 STI, 01 Cobra - All gone
Current - 09 Si sedan

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#76216 - 02/15/05 01:05 PM Re: need advice what to do b16a2
cruzersi99 Offline
Post Master


Registered: 11/13/99
Posts: 2513
That's cool. If I had more time to mess with my car then I would probably look into Crome or Uber. But based on what you know about people in these forums. Would you really suggest that these people tune these cars themselves?

I guess that's my cavaet. I know good people who want to mod there car who don't know dick about cars. But have money and they are willing to pay someone to tune so that they don't hassle with it. You can't really fault them for that. In those situations I think Hondata is a more suitable choice, until more people become familiar with the alternates.
_________________________
186 whp - Church Automotive (Dynapack)
189 whp - Zero Factory (Bosch)

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#76217 - 02/15/05 02:15 PM Re: need advice what to do b16a2
SiCivic99 Offline
Post Master Sr


Registered: 10/29/99
Posts: 4316
Loc: Doesn't matter.
Quote:

That's cool. If I had more time to mess with my car then I would probably look into Crome or Uber. But based on what you know about people in these forums. Would you really suggest that these people tune these cars themselves?

I guess that's my cavaet. I know good people who want to mod there car who don't know dick about cars. But have money and they are willing to pay someone to tune so that they don't hassle with it. You can't really fault them for that. In those situations I think Hondata is a more suitable choice, until more people become familiar with the alternates.




I see your point. There is a list of tuners you can pull up in your area that will tune your car with Crome also. Its just another way of accomplishing the same thing. I know there is more widespread support for Hondata, so its easier to find a tuner.

I don't fault people for not knowing how to tune a car.. I just fault people for dumping loads of money into something for cams, turbo, superchargers, etc and never putting the car on a dyno and tuning it.

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#76218 - 02/15/05 02:26 PM Re: need advice what to do b16a2
SisenoiR Offline
Jr Member


Registered: 12/23/03
Posts: 587
Quote:

Quote:

no i was stating without ctr pistons. milling the head. if you ran the ctr pistons there would be no need to mill the head.




In my opinion, heads shouldn't be milled just to do it and raise compression. Its the wrong was of accomplishing something. They should be milled when they need to be cleaned up or have damage, but not to bump compression.




Agreed, milling the head should be reserved as a last option. You only have so much material that can be removed from the head before it is a mere paperweight, especially on a B16A. So if you were to mill the head then later find out something drastic went wrong and you need to square up the head but guess what you don't have enough material left to do so=YOUR SCREWED.
You can bump compression without internal work = thinner head gaskets.

just my 0.02

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#76219 - 02/15/05 03:38 PM Re: need advice what to do b16a2
LegoZ 81 Offline
Sr Member


Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 1161
Loc: Richardson, Tx US
Quote:

I'm not sure if you are agreeing with me or disagreeing with me....lol...I don't doubt the effectiveness of Crome. From what I know it has it's obvious benifits over Hondata (cost), etc.

I guess I'm not sure on how many people are familiar with how to use it. For someone who has money, but doesn't wish to tune themselves. Then is it a viable option vs. Going to someone to have them tune via Hondata or some other standalone?

Again with all the ECU and tuning options available there is no reason to get a chipped ECU and VAFC.




I misread #1
sorry I though you were recommending chips over propermethods of tuning...

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#76220 - 02/17/05 04:26 PM Re: need advice what to do b16a2
4sinduct Offline
Jr Member


Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 743
Loc: t.o
how hp gain should i expect from a 65mm TB or 68
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#76221 - 02/17/05 05:35 PM Re: need advice what to do b16a2
SiCivic99 Offline
Post Master Sr


Registered: 10/29/99
Posts: 4316
Loc: Doesn't matter.
Quote:

how hp gain should i expect from a 65mm TB or 68




68 is a bit on the large side if you ask me. Typically, going from say a 60 to a 64 will yield about 4whp. Nothing large. Its the throttle response that benefits the most.
_________________________
97 Type R , 96 EKhatch, 93 CX, 99 FBP Si- All gone
04 WRX, 05 STI, 01 Cobra - All gone
Current - 09 Si sedan

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#76222 - 02/18/05 07:20 PM Re: need advice what to do b16a2
4sinduct Offline
Jr Member


Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 743
Loc: t.o
I just went by the shop today and took some pic of the block head and piston i'm getting a skunk2 chipped p28 with the motor



camera phone


Edited by 4sinduct (02/18/05 07:21 PM)
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#76223 - 02/18/05 08:56 PM Re: need advice what to do b16a2
00Blue Offline
Post Master Sr


Registered: 06/28/02
Posts: 4030
Loc: simi valley CA
its a shame to see that nice engine set up is going to be running a skunk2 chipped p28
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#76224 - 02/18/05 09:56 PM Re: need advice what to do b16a2
4sinduct Offline
Jr Member


Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 743
Loc: t.o
no, the ecu i'm getting is free well atleast that's what iam using till i get the hondata
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