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#5897440 - 10/31/11 03:33 PM Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll [Re: Adam G]
Tits-of-Shame Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Adam G
 Originally Posted By: paulsan2112
Sounds like a familiar situation.

Out of curiosity, does it mean that you CANNOT agree with both merciful euthanasia AND the sanctity of life (in my case it would not be religion-based).

That is to say, are they necessarily mutually exclusive?

Good point. I dont know.


Yeah, I would have thought my answer is yes, non-religious. But your post seems to imply you can't suppport euthanasia and the sancity of human life. So I answered no.
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#5897785 - 10/31/11 05:23 PM Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll [Re: Adam G]
UxiSi Offline
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Sorry to hear about your situation. I'll make sure to mention your mother in my prayers. My grandfather died of Alzheimer's in a similar situation. In his case and most every anecdote I hear about that the progression really takes off in the nursing homes so more than a little dubious about their ultimate worthiness or not but certainly caring for them becomes more than the untrained and unequipped can deal with. Grandmother is now (about 8 years later) getting to a similar point, so the concerns are all fresh. 58 seems way too young, though. That's horrible.

The worst part about Alzheimer's is the vacant look and lack of recognition, though it's just behind the look where they semi-recognize you but then get frustrated. And yeah, my grandfather's strength was scary crazy. 80 year old man who was seemingly frail but tossing bodies and took 3 burly orderlies to pacify him. While some had concerns about abuse, I didn't really think he was being abused even after seeing the bruises on him after I saw that display. As with many other sensitive issues, independent oversight and transparency are what is required.

Unfortunately, there's no easy answers that don't make one ultimate a heartless bastard to the other side.

 Quote:
I'm just looking for somebody to explain to me how 1) human life, in each and every circumstance, is of the "ultimate importance and inviolability"


I definitely believe in the sanctity of human life, though it's more than just the hearbeat. The problem is precisely similar to the abortion issue. Religious or not, conservative or liberal, most humans generally agree that the murder of other human beings is bad. With abortion the problem is the uncertainty over where exactly it turns from the "ball of cells" into a "human being."

When lucid, I don't dispute your right to take your own life, though many would question your sanity and emotion state if you tried. If one thought clearly and analytically about it, I can think of a few ways one could kill themselves that are relatively painless. Carbon monoxide is the easiest. When not lucid, well we get into a big ball of wax on who gets to decide when others have transitioned from being a human being to a thing, which is the abortion problem in reverse. Do you still classify your mother as a human being?

The trick throughout history has been dehumanizing undesirables so that they're not people and thus killing them isn't bad. Jews, embryos, vegetables, etc. As long it's an "it" instead of a "him" or "her" it's easier to justify doing whatever procedure for research or processing.

In your specific case, clearly your mother needs better palliative care. Frustration is an unfortunate side effect of the condition but a certain amount of pain and frustration are unavoidable, though both can and should be mitigated (and I'd argue can be mitigated more than your description indicates), though possibly at some financial burden to you and the rest of the extended family. I do still think that in principle she has as much a right to live and breathe as you do, though, and am not prepared to concede that decision to you, much less any faceless politician to draw up his liquidation list.

 Quote:
2) how it would not be more merciful and God-like to have some sort of process or procedure by which we can minimize or eliminate suffering in situations such as these.


Sounds like the latter is a completely false premise and pie in the sky to even consider elimination. This isn't fantasy land regardless of it being a laudable goal or not. Mitigation... well there's the rub. Modern society seems replete with those who want to avoid all discomfort and responsibility or better yet give that over to the State, though don't always consider the requisite liberty that goes with it.

What I find most distasteful about the leftist attitude towards euthanasia is the desire to make it so antiseptic and seemingly harmless when it's just not so. If one doesn't have the intestinal fortitude necessary to do it 'manually, ' then yeah, doing it with injection should be a non-starter. If you were stranded alone in the woods and your loved one took a deep belly wound, how many are prepared to put them out of their misery themselves?

Schaivo is a good example. It would have been more humane to shoot her or give her a lethal injection than starve her to death, but I'd argue she didn't need either when her parents were willing to continue to care for her as they wished to do.


 Originally Posted By: Adam G
 Originally Posted By: Back 5
At any rate. I don't think we, as people, really have the capacity to administer assisted suicides. I think this will be something that ends up abused.

The assisted suicide thing should be a different thread. I ventured a little too far afield with my comments.


That's at the very heart of the issue, though, and 100% germane to the ultimate discussion. If it's ok to do it to your mom or Shaivo, why not those with Down Syndrome and genetic defects? Why let them even marry and breed?
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#5897855 - 10/31/11 05:54 PM Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll [Re: Brainded]
kuku Administrator Online   nohc
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Since there seem to be some people that might need to know this I will put this out there.

Program over the weekend I saw talked about success with Kumon on reversing Alzheimer's symptoms. It was in Japanese so that won't help most but here are some links I found with a quick search.

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2004/07/16/2003179175
http://www.medicinageriatrica.com.ar/viewnews.php?id=EpApEpkVAlMAPRfSlh
http://www.health.am/ab/more/therapy_offers_alzheimers_hope_to_japans_elderly/


A quick google search will turn up the Kumon centers in your region. You could contact them and see if anyone has begun this sort of therapy.
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#5897861 - 10/31/11 05:58 PM Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll [Re: kuku]
Aretard Offline
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I guess I dont. I do... but not where it conflicts with personal free will. If a person wants to die, they should be allowed to.

Easy words on a forum, in reality, I dont want to see every person with a case of depression lining up at the local slaughter house. I would want some sort of medical approval, which introduces 3rd party bias and is all but impossible to get right. Then there is the issue of brain function loss, can you pre-elect to commit suicide in certain events? Given how rapidly our state of conciousness changes, can "I" make a decision for the "future me"? I might say not. and then once the illness has progressed, can I ever be cleared by any reasonable medical standard to make that decision?

abortion fucks the whole thing up as well, since even though I consider a fetus life, I play the trump card of a womans right to control her body, the fetus's failure to support itself without her assistance is its own problem.
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#5898155 - 10/31/11 07:55 PM Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll [Re: Aretard]
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I don't understand why it's so complicated. It's my body, it's my right to choose how and when I will die if I see fit. All this "blurry line" crap is overstating the obvious to me. I don't want to suffer, and I certainly don't want my family standing at my side watching me suffer - how does that help anyone, or improve either of the parties' quality of life? The big issue is that people can make up hundreds of scenarios where this doesn't fit, but I'm not interested in those. If I have terminal cancer and my chance of survival is nil, or if my brain is too fargone with dementia to ever recover any semblance of normalcy, put me to sleep or put a bullet in my head IF I ASK FOR IT. If I'm lucid, give me my choice. If I'm not and never will be again, let me sign up now to do as I ask if that time ever comes (and given the rate of alzheimers on my father's side, it will). I'm not talking about early-onset, or sundowners or anything. If I'm full-on batshit, off-the-reservation talking to dead people and thinking the couch is trying to kill me, please just get it over with as I will never be a contributing member of society again, I'll just leach off the system until such time as I pass naturally.

Todd


Edited by ElectronVTEC2 (10/31/11 07:56 PM)
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#5898204 - 10/31/11 08:10 PM Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll [Re: Aretard]
Tits-of-Shame Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Ares
I guess I dont. I do... but not where it conflicts with personal free will. If a person wants to die, they should be allowed to.

Easy words on a forum, in reality, I dont want to see every person with a case of depression lining up at the local slaughter house. I would want some sort of medical approval, which introduces 3rd party bias and is all but impossible to get right. Then there is the issue of brain function loss, can you pre-elect to commit suicide in certain events? Given how rapidly our state of conciousness changes, can "I" make a decision for the "future me"? I might say not. and then once the illness has progressed, can I ever be cleared by any reasonable medical standard to make that decision?

abortion fucks the whole thing up as well, since even though I consider a fetus life, I play the trump card of a womans right to control her body, the fetus's failure to support itself without her assistance is its own problem.



Oregon now has a law that fits in with your ideal, and I believe Washington might have passed one as well. Psych evals, diagnosed fatal disease, etc.
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#5898302 - 10/31/11 08:47 PM Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll [Re: Tits-of-Shame]
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I believe in it until such point that there's little to no brain activity. I guess that's as simple as I can put it.
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#5898316 - 10/31/11 08:54 PM Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll [Re: ElectronVTEC2]
Aretard Offline
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 Originally Posted By: ElectronVTEC2
I don't understand why it's so complicated. It's my body, it's my right to choose how and when I will die if I see fit. All this "blurry line" crap is overstating the obvious to me. I don't want to suffer, and I certainly don't want my family standing at my side watching me suffer - how does that help anyone, or improve either of the parties' quality of life? The big issue is that people can make up hundreds of scenarios where this doesn't fit, but I'm not interested in those. If I have terminal cancer and my chance of survival is nil, or if my brain is too fargone with dementia to ever recover any semblance of normalcy, put me to sleep or put a bullet in my head IF I ASK FOR IT. If I'm lucid, give me my choice. If I'm not and never will be again, let me sign up now to do as I ask if that time ever comes (and given the rate of alzheimers on my father's side, it will). I'm not talking about early-onset, or sundowners or anything. If I'm full-on batshit, off-the-reservation talking to dead people and thinking the couch is trying to kill me, please just get it over with as I will never be a contributing member of society again, I'll just leach off the system until such time as I pass naturally.

Todd


the concept affects other things, like death penalty. which I disagree with.
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#5898350 - 10/31/11 09:09 PM Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll [Re: Aretard]
oldtimer Offline
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I voted yes, but that doesn't mean you can't pull the plug, etc. I would extend my views to all living creatures and not just humans. That doesn't mean you can't eat meat.
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#5898483 - 10/31/11 09:48 PM Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll [Re: oldtimer]
enicideme Offline
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Edit. PM



Edited by enicideme (10/31/11 09:49 PM)
Edit Reason: PM for obvious reasons
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#5898488 - 10/31/11 09:50 PM Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll [Re: oldtimer]
Aretard Offline
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 Originally Posted By: oldtimer
I voted yes, but that doesn't mean you can't pull the plug, etc. I would extend my views to all living creatures and not just humans. That doesn't mean you can't eat meat.


this doesnt make any sense...
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#5898493 - 10/31/11 09:51 PM Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll [Re: Aretard]
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 Originally Posted By: Ares
 Originally Posted By: oldtimer
I voted yes, but that doesn't mean you can't pull the plug, etc. I would extend my views to all living creatures and not just humans. That doesn't mean you can't eat meat.


this doesnt make any sense...
maybe he only eats wounded roadkill
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#5898501 - 10/31/11 09:55 PM Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll [Re: EDNKSU]
Aretard Offline
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 Originally Posted By: TheNewDM
 Originally Posted By: Ares
 Originally Posted By: oldtimer
I voted yes, but that doesn't mean you can't pull the plug, etc. I would extend my views to all living creatures and not just humans. That doesn't mean you can't eat meat.


this doesnt make any sense...
maybe he only eats wounded roadkill


I seen that on the penn and teller discovery show
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#5899704 - 11/01/11 10:11 AM Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll [Re: UxiSi]
Adam G Offline
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 Originally Posted By: UxiSi
Sorry to hear about your situation. I'll make sure to mention your mother in my prayers. My grandfather died of Alzheimer's in a similar situation. In his case and most every anecdote I hear about that the progression really takes off in the nursing homes so more than a little dubious about their ultimate worthiness or not but certainly caring for them becomes more than the untrained and unequipped can deal with. Grandmother is now (about 8 years later) getting to a similar point, so the concerns are all fresh. 58 seems way too young, though. That's horrible.

Thanks for the long post.

It is remarkable how it takes off once the patient moves into the nursing home. For my mom, I think it has to do with being away from home against her will. It's killing it and we all know it, but going home just isnt an option.

 Quote:
The worst part about Alzheimer's is the vacant look and lack of recognition, though it's just behind the look where they semi-recognize you but then get frustrated. And yeah, my grandfather's strength was scary crazy. 80 year old man who was seemingly frail but tossing bodies and took 3 burly orderlies to pacify him. While some had concerns about abuse, I didn't really think he was being abused even after seeing the bruises on him after I saw that display. As with many other sensitive issues, independent oversight and transparency are what is required.

We thought her bruises and black eye were abuse related too. As time went on, we realized they were self inflicted.
 Quote:
Unfortunately, there's no easy answers that don't make one ultimate a heartless bastard to the other side.

I definitely believe in the sanctity of human life, though it's more than just the hearbeat. The problem is precisely similar to the abortion issue. Religious or not, conservative or liberal, most humans generally agree that the murder of other human beings is bad. With abortion the problem is the uncertainty over where exactly it turns from the "ball of cells" into a "human being."

When lucid, I don't dispute your right to take your own life, though many would question your sanity and emotion state if you tried. If one thought clearly and analytically about it, I can think of a few ways one could kill themselves that are relatively painless. Carbon monoxide is the easiest. When not lucid, well we get into a big ball of wax on who gets to decide when others have transitioned from being a human being to a thing, which is the abortion problem in reverse. Do you still classify your mother as a human being?

Yeah I do. I dont think you necessarily have to dehumanize somebody to determine that it is in their best interest to no longer suffer. It's pretty similar, in effect and in my mind, to pulling the plug and eliminating life sustaining treatment.
 Quote:
The trick throughout history has been dehumanizing undesirables so that they're not people and thus killing them isn't bad. Jews, embryos, vegetables, etc. As long it's an "it" instead of a "him" or "her" it's easier to justify doing whatever procedure for research or processing.

I understand the slippery slope argument and I can appreciate the apprehension towards the possibility of abuse. But just about anything turns bad if you abuse it, whether that's gun rights, the death penalty, or any other political/social/rights issue you can think of.

 Quote:
In your specific case, clearly your mother needs better palliative care. Frustration is an unfortunate side effect of the condition but a certain amount of pain and frustration are unavoidable, though both can and should be mitigated (and I'd argue can be mitigated more than your description indicates), though possibly at some financial burden to you and the rest of the extended family.

Dont remember if I put this in the original post, but they can calm her down temporarily by pumping her full of a drug called Ativan (sp?). It's an anti-anxiety drug that effectively turns her into a zombie.

As for hospice, that's covered by Medicaid. I'm not sure when the doctors will want to pull the trigger and go that route, but I can't imagine that it's far off into the distance.
 Quote:
I do still think that in principle she has as much a right to live and breathe as you do, though, and am not prepared to concede that decision to you, much less any faceless politician to draw up his liquidation list.

Right, death panels.

Like I said, I understand all that. I'm just opining to anybody that will listen that there has to, or at least should be, a better way. I'm not sure what sort of legal/regulatory safeguards there would have to be to have a system like that.

 Quote:
Sounds like the latter is a completely false premise and pie in the sky to even consider elimination. This isn't fantasy land regardless of it being a laudable goal or not. Mitigation... well there's the rub. Modern society seems replete with those who want to avoid all discomfort and responsibility or better yet give that over to the State, though don't always consider the requisite liberty that goes with it.

What I find most distasteful about the leftist attitude towards euthanasia is the desire to make it so antiseptic and seemingly harmless when it's just not so. If one doesn't have the intestinal fortitude necessary to do it 'manually, ' then yeah, doing it with injection should be a non-starter. If you were stranded alone in the woods and your loved one took a deep belly wound, how many are prepared to put them out of their misery themselves?

Schaivo is a good example. It would have been more humane to shoot her or give her a lethal injection than starve her to death, but I'd argue she didn't need either when her parents were willing to continue to care for her as they wished to do.

It was an enormous travesty that her condition turned into a national political issue. Bill Frist getting in front of the camera and saying that a woman he had never examined was not in a permanent vegetative state based on his view of some tape was nauseating.
 Originally Posted By: Adam G
That's at the very heart of the issue, though, and 100% germane to the ultimate discussion. If it's ok to do it to your mom or Shaivo, why not those with Down Syndrome and genetic defects? Why let them even marry and breed?

Right, where do you draw the line.

With Down it's possible to live a successful life. A guy on my aunt by marriage's side of the family had Down and was the first one to ever graduate college. There's a building at one of the SUNYs named in his honor.

I mentioned my cousin's husband with Huntington's Disease earlier in the thread. That's a genetic disease that is passed down 50% of the time. They're having kids. Live and let live.

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#5899722 - 11/01/11 10:21 AM Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll [Re: Adam G]
Murder Offline
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#5916720 - 11/08/11 04:45 PM Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll [Re: Murder]
Adam G Offline
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Bump for update.
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#5916725 - 11/08/11 04:47 PM Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll [Re: Adam G]
JC wolfsburg2 Offline
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Rip
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#5916726 - 11/08/11 04:48 PM Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll [Re: Adam G]
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So sorry Adam. \:\( *big hug*
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#5916731 - 11/08/11 04:50 PM Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll [Re: psi mr2]
jsmonet Offline
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yeesh, that's no way to live, but a rough way to go. sorry man \:\(
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#5916732 - 11/08/11 04:50 PM Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll [Re: Adam G]
Philabong Offline
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Adam. I am so sorry for your loss.

If there is such a thing as a better place, I hope all the awesome Moms and Grandmas are there makin' some kick ass soup, waiting for us to come home like they always had.

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#5916733 - 11/08/11 04:50 PM Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll [Re: Philabong]
Silock Offline
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That sounds absolutely awful. Glad her suffering is over now. RIP.

Sorry for your loss, man \:\(

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#5916737 - 11/08/11 04:51 PM Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll [Re: Adam G]
burton71 Offline
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My thoughst are with you and your family..I can't imagine going through that.
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#5916739 - 11/08/11 04:52 PM Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll [Re: Silock]
lugnut33 Offline
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So sorry to hear about your loss. Condolences.

Stay strong buckaroo and try to remember the good times.
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#5916742 - 11/08/11 04:54 PM Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll [Re: psi mr2]
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I'm sorry for your loss. You shared a lot here and it made an impact on me and I think a lot of us. I know your family had a bit of time to prepare for this, but I can't imagine the decisions you have made recently.

Thoughts and prayers for your family.
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#5916743 - 11/08/11 04:54 PM Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll [Re: lugnut33]
SuspiciousLump Offline
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RIP your mom
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#5916746 - 11/08/11 04:54 PM Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll [Re: Silock]
96lapis coupe Offline
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Sorry man. RIP
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#5916749 - 11/08/11 04:55 PM Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll [Re: SuspiciousLump]
skierd Offline
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RIP \:\( Tearing up a little, glad she's finally at peace.
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#5916750 - 11/08/11 04:56 PM Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll [Re: EDNKSU]
Adam G Offline
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 Originally Posted By: usknde
You shared a lot here and it made an impact on me and I think a lot of us.

Thanks brother.

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#5916752 - 11/08/11 04:57 PM Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll [Re: Adam G]
Nealoc187 Offline
<3
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sorry to hear this man.
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#5916773 - 11/08/11 05:18 PM Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll [Re: Nealoc187]
Mr Scandal Offline
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shit man.. sorry \:\(
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#5916776 - 11/08/11 05:19 PM Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll [Re: Nealoc187]
ElectronVTEC2 Offline
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Adam, my wife lost her grandmother on Sunday. I am terribly sorry for your loss, but I hope there is some solace that she is now at peace and no longer suffering. She is with you always.

Todd
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#5916786 - 11/08/11 05:23 PM Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll [Re: Nealoc187]
Adam G Offline
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One more heart wrenching thing that I forgot. On Sunday they moved us out of the ICU into a room that Marc and I called the "waiting room." It was on the 14th floor and was exclusively for patients that were waiting to pass. No drugs outside of morphine and no monitors at all. The nurses would just take vitals every eight hours.

As they were transferring her from her bed to her moveable bed to take her to the waiting room, one solitary tear rolled down her cheek. That was tough.

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#5916790 - 11/08/11 05:23 PM Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll [Re: ElectronVTEC2]
Adam G Offline
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 Originally Posted By: ElectronVTEC2
Adam, my wife lost her grandmother on Sunday. I am terribly sorry for your loss, but I hope there is some solace that she is now at peace and no longer suffering. She is with you always.

Todd

Sorry for your loss Todd.

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#5916796 - 11/08/11 05:28 PM Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll [Re: Adam G]
Spooky7715 Online   content
Post Master Supreme


Registered: 12/17/01
Posts: 16755
Loc: GA
You know I love ya, hubs. My heart goes out to you. My prayers are with you and your family.
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#5916797 - 11/08/11 05:28 PM Re: Do you believe in the sanctity of human life? v. poll [Re: Adam G]
TheKing Offline
Post Master Supreme


Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 11031
Sorry Adam, I've been through something very similar and it's still something that I think about everyday. It gets better and you start to hold on to the great memories and block out the bad.
_________________________
yea yea yea, I'm fat

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