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#53215 - 08/21/04 02:13 PM Does this sound like bullshit to you?----->THE CONCLUSION!
vapor trails Offline
Jr Member


Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 383
Well, I finally received all my parts after getting the wrong Konis from someone at a shop I won't mention and took my Energy Suspension Master Kit down to a shop for an estimate. The guy quoted me close to 15 hours of labor + possible additional parts that may be needed from Honda, so I went somewhere else.

The second place quoted me 5 hours labor to install the bushings, Koni Yellows, and Integra OE sport springs + the cost of an alignment. I dropped the car off on Wednesday evening so they could get started first thing on Thursday morning. I got a call from the shop at 8:30 saying that it would be 6 hours of labor and I said ok, fine. No big deal. Then I get another call saying that there are 2 pins (?) that needed to be cut because they couldn't pull them out, and he had to get them from Honda for $50/each, but wouldn't charge me any extra labor. Again, no big deal, although I have no idea what pins he's talking about. That evening I get yet another call saying my car wouldn't be done that day, but since they quoted me 6 hours labor, I won't be charged for the extra time involved, and the car would be finished up on Friday. I didn't mind this either. However, I just happened to drive by the shop and my car was sitting outside, but didn't stop in. When I got home, I checked my answering machine and there was a message from the manager to call him. He wanted me to pick my car up, even though it wasn't finished, then re-schedule to finish the job. I told him to keep the car there until it's done, but they don't work on weekends. He was bitching about the rear trailing arm bushings, so I printed out the pictures I had seen here before on how to do them, and took them down to him. He looked at them, and said "Yeah, we already did one side just like this," then went on to say that my labor cost was going to be WAY more than the 6 hours I was quoted. I didn't respond because I'd rather have them finish the job, then when I pick the car up, refuse to pay more than 6 hours labor + alignment + $100 Honda "pins" I was quoted. How would you guys handle this?

Oh, and when I saw my car parked outside, the front end of my car was much higher than the rear. Would adjusting the Konis solve this, or are Integra springs longer in the front than Si springs? Do the urethane bushings have anything to do with this? I bought H&R OE Sport Integra springs because I thought they might be stiffer than the Civic OE Sports. It seems like there aren't any companies that sell stiffer springs without a drop. If these springs don't work out, do you have any suggestions? Thanks for reading this!

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#53216 - 08/21/04 03:53 PM Re: Does this sound like bullshit to you?
CivicRacerExR Offline
Post Master Sr


Registered: 11/05/99
Posts: 8856
Loc: Landisville, PA, USA
It actually takes a good experience mechanic 10-15 hours. So the first shop was right. I had mine done while I was on vacation

The pin he's talking about is probably in the control arms. And your rear being higher than the front sounds like they put the clips for the seat of the spring on the wrong height. The rears have like 5 different notches and the front have 3. Putting the clips on the middle on both front and rear should equal stock height.
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#53217 - 08/21/04 07:02 PM Re: Does this sound like bullshit to you?
georgelb Offline
Jr Member


Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 428
Loc: Arlington, TX
The pins would be the rear trailing arm pins...they do not pull/press out...they have to be cut/burned out of the OE bushings then cleaned up with a wire brush...sounds like they took the easy way out and ordered new ones.

The labor the first shop quoted you is about right though. And, sadly, even if you got a printed quote...most shops have fine print saying they are just an estimate and actual cost may vary. I was quoted $600 to install mine and do an alignment...and after doing it myself instead I completely understood why it costs so much.

As far as the height, I agree with the above post.

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#53218 - 08/21/04 09:53 PM Re: Does this sound like bullshit to you?
vapor trails Offline
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Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 383
It wasn't the rear trailing arm pins because they haven't finished the rear yet, and this was when they were working on the front. So it's the control arm pins? Anyway, the front fender gap is higher than the rear, not the other way around. You're sure this would have nothing to do with them being Integra springs? I have a '99 Si.

georgelb, I believe it was your pictures that I printed out and showed them. Nice work, btw. Would either of you have a link to an illustration or picture showing what these 5 rear and 3 front notches look like? I want to be completely sure that this is the problem before I order different springs. Thanks for the help!

EDIT: here is a link showing the front lower control arms on my car. Could you please take a look at it and tell me which part they probably charged me $50/side for? Thanks again!

http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/auto/jsp/mws/prddisplay.jsp?inputstate=5&catcgry1=Civic&catcgry2=1999&catcgry3=2DR+SI&catcgry4=KA5MT&catcgry5=FRONT+LOWER+ARM+%282%29

EDIT part 2:

These are NOT coilovers, so if that's what you meant by spring adjustment 5 rear 3 front, it doesn't apply to my setup. I just have regular Koni Yellows and H&R OE Integra springs. The only adjustment that I know of is on the top of the Konis.


Edited by vapor trails (08/21/04 10:33 PM)

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#53219 - 08/22/04 04:22 AM Re: Does this sound like bullshit to you?
georgelb Offline
Jr Member


Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 428
Loc: Arlington, TX
The only pins I ran into were in the rear trailing arms...everything else that has to be replaced comes in the master set. No clue what they charged you for there.

And on the shocks/springs...some yellows have an adjustable lower perch...we though you had those...dunno otherwise.

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#53220 - 08/22/04 10:50 AM Re: Does this sound like bullshit to you?
Billy Bibbit Offline
Post Master Supreme


Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 15823
Loc: Indiana
i wished i could afford a bushing kit+ install!!
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#53221 - 08/22/04 11:09 AM Re: Does this sound like bullshit to you?
Stylinhonda Offline
Poster


Registered: 04/11/04
Posts: 209
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky
Quote:

The only pins I ran into were in the rear trailing arms...everything else that has to be replaced comes in the master set. No clue what they charged you for there.

And on the shocks/springs...some yellows have an adjustable lower perch...we though you had those...dunno otherwise.




All Konis Yellows for civics have the perches. A few more in the rear than in the front. And whatever perch you have them set on DOES change your ride height. If my konis are not on the middle perch it will ither be too low or too heigh.
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#53222 - 08/22/04 01:52 PM Re: Does this sound like bullshit to you?
vapor trails Offline
Jr Member


Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 383
It must have been the rear trailing arm pins they charged me for. Either that, or they made something up to make up for the low estimate they gave me. I'm not looking forward to the confrontation when I pick my car up.

I think I know what you guys mean by perches. There were round chrome looking pieces that came in the box with the Konis. Do these slide over the shock and rest on notches built into the shock? Is there any way that I can tell after I pick up the car by looking at them to see if they were installed properly?

Quote:

i wished i could afford a bushing kit+ install!!




LOL, me too!

How hard is it for them to install the steering rack bushings? They hadn't done those yet when I went over there.

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#53223 - 08/22/04 04:23 PM Re: Does this sound like bullshit to you?
georgelb Offline
Jr Member


Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 428
Loc: Arlington, TX
not hard...time consuming...which equals labor cost I guess.


I had to remove the crossbrace, unbolt the rack, then get inside the car, remove steering column cover, then the disconect lower steering column bolt so the rack will drop down far enough to get the bushings in.

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#53224 - 08/22/04 05:21 PM Re: Does this sound like bullshit to you?
Thom Offline
Major Member


Registered: 12/31/99
Posts: 1345
Loc: Michigan
I have Koni's on my 99 Si.

The rears have 3 perch settings, the front, 2.

If you have Neuspeed spec Konis, you have 5 rear, 3 front. The overal distance between the Neuspeed and stock Koni is the same. The Neuspeed version has a shorter piston as well.
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2015 JKUR

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#53225 - 08/22/04 06:19 PM Re: Does this sound like bullshit to you?
vapor trails Offline
Jr Member


Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 383
If they don't install the steering column bushings, do you think it's that necessary?

I'm really confused about this perch setting. Are you guys talking about the white dial that can be adjusted after they're installed, or is this something that's done during installation?

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#53226 - 08/22/04 06:26 PM Re: Does this sound like bullshit to you?
georgelb Offline
Jr Member


Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 428
Loc: Arlington, TX
The steering rack bushings offer greatly improved steering response...I would put them in. The perch is probably the chrome part you were talking about...and yes, adjusted during installation.
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#53227 - 08/22/04 09:26 PM Re: Does this sound like bullshit to you?
Stylinhonda Offline
Poster


Registered: 04/11/04
Posts: 209
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky
Its hard to explain about the perches without a pic of a shock.
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#53228 - 08/23/04 01:00 AM Re: Does this sound like bullshit to you?
vapor trails Offline
Jr Member


Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 383
I think I've got everything figured out.You guys have been a big help! I'll let you know how things go when I get the car back. Thanks again!
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#53229 - 08/24/04 08:27 PM Re: Does this sound like bullshit to you?
vapor trails Offline
Jr Member


Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 383
Well, I finally got my car back today. The manager told me on the phone that they put 18 hours into the car total, and he'd work with me on the price, but I said the original agreement was for 5 hours labor + alignment, then the next day before work was started on the car 6 hours + alignment + "pins" which turned out to be part number 51320-S04-003 (Stabilizer Bar Link) for $50/each. Also, at the end of the day that someone told me the car wouldn't be done, but since they quoted me 6 hours labor, that would be the FINAL price. He said "Does that sound fair to you?" and I explained that there is no way I would've left my car with them had I known this. He tried to make me feel guilty that the other employees would get into trouble, which I felt was unprofessional, then went on to say if he was working at the time he would've refused to do the work. "Like I've told you in the past, we're not a speed shop," he said. Our family has done business with them for decades, as they are also a body shop. His attitude toward me really pissed me off the other day, and there was no reason for it because I'm always friendly with people down there, and most of them know me, including the owner. The person who quoted me the 6 hours labor was really cool, and said they enjoyed working on the car because they were learning things. A learning process shouldn't increase the price. That's not my problem. (I didn't say this to the manager, but sort of hinted that a lot of the extra time was to figure things out.) I bs'd the manager a little bit and said that another shop had quoted me $550 for the job, because that's what I believe georgelb listed in another post as his quote. "I'll see what I can do," was his response before we got off the phone. I got a call back asking me if 8 hours labor at 66/hr, which is $528, would be acceptable, since the other shop quoted me $550, and I still stuck to the fact that I was told it would be only 6 hours labor. Again, he said he'd try to see if the price could be lowered, and never called me back. When I picked up the car, he gave me the original bill, and the final bill.

Original:

17.9 hours labor x 66/hr = 1181.40
4 wheel alignment = 69.95
2 stabilizer bar links = 89.74
Total = 1341.09 + tax (80.47) = $1421.56

What I ended up paying:

Replace suspension parts suplied by customer = 500.00
4 wheel alignment = 69.95
2 stabilizer bar links = 89.74

Total = 659.69 + tax (39.58) = $699.27

I still think that's a rip. I only paid $500 for my turbo install! They didn't stick to their word of 6 hours labor, but I wasn't about to take it to small claims court. I'm done with them and will never go back.

As for the car itself, according to them all 4 springs are on the middle perches, but the car still sits higher in the front. He told me there was one lower notch, but I'm just going to buy different springs. Anyone want to buy some Integra H&R OE Sports for cheap? I'm probably going to buy the regular H&R Sports. Even if I would get camber problems and uneven tire wear, I'll burn them off long before that happens. Performance is expensive!

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#53230 - 08/24/04 08:39 PM Re: Does this sound like bullshit to you?
georgelb Offline
Jr Member


Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 428
Loc: Arlington, TX
Quite an ordeal there man...but you did end up getting a really fair price in the end. Like I said earlier...most shops quotes are just estimates and with that being the case I think they did right in the end. I really do not think you could have won a claims case on that.


On the ride height...you really should just mess with the perches instead of getting new springs...it is almost a sure thing that another set of springs will have the same problem with your perches as they are.

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#53231 - 08/25/04 12:56 PM Re: Does this sound like bullshit to you?
BartmanMN-Si Offline
Post Master


Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 2602
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
Sorry to hear all of the BS. If I had to spend that kind of money to get things installed I wouldn't have anyting.
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#53232 - 08/25/04 02:45 PM Re: Does this sound like bullshit to you?
vapor trails Offline
Jr Member


Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 383
Thanks guys. If I had another car, and friends who are into working on cars, I MIGHT attempt something like this to save myself some cash. People with good mechanical ability aren't afraid to make mistakes and learn from them. On the other hand, I am too much of a perfectionist and need instructions and torque specs, etc. that a child could understand. I envy you.
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#53233 - 08/25/04 04:06 PM Re: Does this sound like bullshit to you?
georgelb Offline
Jr Member


Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 428
Loc: Arlington, TX
Quote:

On the other hand, I am too much of a perfectionist and need instructions and torque specs, etc. that a child could understand. I envy you.




I need that stuff too...the torque specs are especially important with suspension components...that is where Helms comes into play...both the directions and the specs. And although you should be able to at least change a lightbulb in your house first...most anyone can learn to do their own work...it just takes a little confidence, a lot of patience, and sometimes a bit of creativity. Look at it this way...even if you break something you will usually end up paying less in the end for what you broke than paying someone else the labor...and you gain experience and a ton of satisfaction...which helps boost your confidence the next time out.

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#53234 - 08/25/04 05:44 PM Re: Does this sound like bullshit to you?
derspi Offline
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Registered: 12/09/02
Posts: 148
Loc: BC, Canada
Err....the only bullshit I see is you lying to them about the $550 quote you got from another shop. I don't see the difficulty in understanding that they obviously underquoted you - not because they did it on purpose just so they can win your business but due to inexperience with a job such as yours. I think you know that but standing hard on their underquote despite the fact that other people said it should take much more than the quoted 6 hours is quite unfair of you. You even have the balls to ask for less than the $528 revised amount and this total is already less than the BS $550 quote you told them about. Like someone else mentioned, it is ONLY AN ESTIMATE, the final price may or may not be the quoted amount. Yes, they made a mistake on the original quote but I think they more than made up for it when they wanted to charge you $528. Quite frankly, I can understand their frustration and hence, giving you a bit of attitude considering how unwilling you were to see things from their point of view and compromising just a little bit. Maybe next time you should go to a reputable speed shop that has more firsthand knowledge of doing stuff like this but even then, there is bound to be the odd hiccup that will cost more than the quoted amount. Coz when it comes to stuff like this: You gotta pay if you wanna play.
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#53235 - 08/25/04 10:08 PM Re: Does this sound like bullshit to you?
vapor trails Offline
Jr Member


Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 383
I see your point, but I NEVER would have put these things on my car had I known how much the cost would be. I would have shopped around for a better price quote, then sold the bushings, if necessary. It wasn't a written estimate, but a verbal price quote for 5 hours labor. Period. I was called the next day before the work was started and told 6 hours. I could have backed out then, but told them to go ahead. I received another call that night saying they WOULD NOT carge me more than the 6 hours labor. Period again. The $550 wasn't a number I pulled out of my ass, it was a real estimate that another CSI member received for the same job. $528 was still more than the 6 hour price quote ($396). It wasn't my fault. Everything was fine until the shithead manager came back to work. Like I said, this place has received a HUGE amount of business from us over the years. They're multi millionaires. Furthermore, I don't care if you've got more money to "pay to play" then I do. I shop around for the best deals, and when I'm given a price for something, in this case, originally $330 + alignment + parts, then when I pick up the car it's $1181.40 + alignment + parts, I'm supposed to bend over and take it? I don't think so. That's more than a slight "underquote." Besides, they only came down $28 more after I DISAGREED with their price of $528. I wasn't belligerent at all. I just merely explained my position. Besides, after all was said and done, I still ended up paying $110.24 more.

For a little history on this place, I know they've driven my car hard. One time when I picked up my car, the boost shot up past 15lbs without a 3 bar map sensor or Hondata tune, just a blue box. That's extremely unprofessional and dishonest. Even one of the body shop guys tells me stories of how he drove a customer's NSX at 90mph in the rain (35mph road) after the guy had an alignment, how my car was faster than another customer's Lotus turbo (4 cylinder, not the V8), so I know for a fact that they joyride in my car, as well as other customer's cars. The interior of my car had been detailed before I dropped it off, and when I picked it up, there were dirty footprints on the passenger side carpeting and more than 6 miles on the car. This time I reset the odometer, wrote down the mileage, and disconnected the MBC so they wouldn't mess with it. Considering the circumstances, I didn't have the energy to make comments about this. I may have haggled the price down using someone else's quote, but they're not saints either.

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#53236 - 08/25/04 10:16 PM Re: Does this sound like bullshit to you?
CivicRacerExR Offline
Post Master Sr


Registered: 11/05/99
Posts: 8856
Loc: Landisville, PA, USA
Those stabilizer bar endlinks they should have sucked up. They are expensive, but you have to remove them with an allen wrench and socket. If they didn't they probably forced it off and destroyed them in the process.

I know I had to deal with them last week when I installed my Comptech bar.
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#53237 - 08/25/04 10:42 PM Re: Does this sound like bullshit to you?
vapor trails Offline
Jr Member


Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 383
Quote:

Look at it this way...even if you break something you will usually end up paying less in the end for what you broke than paying someone else the labor...and you gain experience and a ton of satisfaction...which helps boost your confidence the next time out.




Very true!

Quote:

Those stabilizer bar endlinks they should have sucked up. They are expensive, but you have to remove them with an allen wrench and socket. If they didn't they probably forced it off and destroyed them in the process.




Maybe they should have, but who knows? It's a 5 year old car, and the winters with road salt have probably taken their toll. That didn't really bother me, and the first guy I talked to was cool and let me know ahead of time.

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#53238 - 08/25/04 10:44 PM Re: Does this sound like bullshit to you?
georgelb Offline
Jr Member


Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 428
Loc: Arlington, TX
After all the stuff you said they have done in the past, I would not even be going to them anymore...that is just me though. I would have stopped going after being told they were driving a customers car at 90mph.

as a sidenote though...the $550 I was quoted was after I had already installed the shift linkage bushings, the sway bushings, new endlinks and endlink bushings, front/rear shock bushings, front/rear spring isolators, the rear bushing on the front lower arms.

So the $550 quote was for the rear trailing arms, the front upper arms, the remaining ones in the front lower arms, and the steering rack bushings...plus an alignment...not the entire set...just fyi.


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#53239 - 08/26/04 04:09 AM Re: Does this sound like bullshit to you?
derspi Offline
Jr Poster


Registered: 12/09/02
Posts: 148
Loc: BC, Canada
Man, knowing that little bit of "history" I never would have brought my car back there for anything! That's quite the risk you took on them - stuff does happen to customer's cars and I've heard a few stories in my area.

I agree in that the orginal bill of $1100+ is too much BUT the revised amount of $528 was more than fair is what I'm trying to say. Like georgelb said though, $550 may not have been an all too accurate quote either considering you got the whole shebang installed at one time. In the end, I'm quite certain you got the better end of the deal regardless. Whether or not they did a good install is now the question...
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#53240 - 08/26/04 10:06 AM Re: Does this sound like bullshit to you?
CivicRacerExR Offline
Post Master Sr


Registered: 11/05/99
Posts: 8856
Loc: Landisville, PA, USA
Quote:

After all the stuff you said they have done in the past, I would not even be going to them anymore...that is just me though. I would have stopped going after being told they were driving a customers car at 90mph.




Which is why whenever I get maintenance work on my car I check the mileage before I leave it there. The most they should put on the car is about 1-2 miles.
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#53241 - 08/26/04 01:43 PM Re: Does this sound like bullshit to you?
vapor trails Offline
Jr Member


Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 383
There aren't too many choices left for me to go to around here. The place that put my turbo kit in screwed up on multiple occasions (details upon request...long story). The dealership I bought my 98 EX from is over an hour away, so I took it to a local dealer for service and they scraped the front lower part of the bumper (mostly buffed out by me), spilled oil all over my valve cover and intake manifold, but didn't clean it up. Then when I bought my Si from them, they dented the door when it was in for service and tried to blame it on me. Even though they fixed it, I stopped going there. Then I tried another dealership. I was initially very pleased with this place until getting new tires mounted and balanced with an alignment. I was an hour away from the place and heard a horrible noise that I thought might be an axle or something. It sounded REALLY bad. Anyway, I took it back and it turned out that a couple of lug nuts weren't tightened down and the wheel almost came off. I received no apology because I asked them not to test drive the car (I didn't want anyone beating on the car). The lugs were tightened and I drove back to where I was before. Well, the same thing happened again, and by this time the dealership was closed, so every so often I'd pull over and tighten the lugs and finally made it home. The next day I took it down and all they ended up doing was replacing 1 of the studs, and 1 of the lugs and re-torqued everything down. Again, no apology or offer to refund some of my money, or even a free oil change. Nothing! Since then, the car hasn't driven as smoothly. I wrote a letter to Honda Customer Relations, and all they did was forward the letter to the Service Director at the same dealership, who called me to say how good the mechanic that worked on my car is, then sent me a survey letter asking if I was satisfied. Another place I went to that was listed on Tire Rack's website seemed to do good work, but were expensive, put too many miles on my car, then talked about how quick my car was and the torque steer. So, the reason I went to the place above was because, although they may joyride in customers cars, I never had a problem with the quality of their work. Better the devil you know, I guess. Like I said, I was prepared to confront them about the mileage this time, but considering the circumstances I didn't bother.

They didn't install the complete kit, either. I had previously purchased and installed the shifter stabilizer bushings, and a customer service representative at Energy Suspension told me not to use some of the included parts, such as the tie rod end boots because dirt can get inside. So I guess that evens things out.

My search continues for a good, reliable, trustworthy shop. I hope it exists.

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#53242 - 08/27/04 05:10 PM Re: Does this sound like bullshit to you?
Econorocket Offline
Poster


Registered: 03/25/02
Posts: 254
Loc: So Cal
Soon, your bushings will start to squeek...
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#53243 - 08/27/04 07:55 PM Re: Does this sound like bullshit to you?
georgelb Offline
Jr Member


Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 428
Loc: Arlington, TX
Quote:

Soon, your bushings will start to squeek...




I put mine in a couple months ago and no squeeks. I did get the graphite impregnated ones and also bought an extra tub of lube though.

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#53244 - 08/28/04 10:58 AM Re: Does this sound like bullshit to you?----->THE CONCLUSION!
UH8inOKI Offline
Jr Member


Registered: 02/10/01
Posts: 594
Loc: AZ
How is it that you guys all find these buster-ass shops?! I guess I am the lucky one. I have a local Honda dealer with great service writers that have earned my trust. While they can't do it all, they are good enough for mantainance.

I have also found what has to be the BEST suspension shop in the world. These guys were not afraid of all of the aftermarket parts on my car. They were able to bring my car into factory alignment spcs (camber too) and they engineered several solutions to repair and cure the subframe destruction caused by my ST rear sway bar.

Better luck to you next time.

BTW, any Southern AZ CSi'ers wantt he shop name, it is Alignment Suspension and Brake Specialists. They are the BEST.
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#53245 - 08/28/04 01:49 PM Re: Does this sound like bullshit to you?----->THE CONCLUSION!
vapor trails Offline
Jr Member


Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 383
I have great luck, dont I? I also bought the graphite impregnated bushings, but knowing my luck they'll probably be noisy.
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#53246 - 08/31/04 08:10 PM Re: Does this sound like bullshit to you?----->THE CONCLUSION!
Econorocket Offline
Poster


Registered: 03/25/02
Posts: 254
Loc: So Cal
My fronts just started squeek after about 4 months - and put lots of lube on them...

No big deal, they only squeek at when starting and stopping....
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#9158574 - 10/13/17 08:19 PM Re: Does this sound like bullshit to you?----->THE CONCLUSION! [Re: Econorocket]
HYst Offline
Jr Member


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#9179198 - 11/05/17 01:29 PM Re: Does this sound like bullshit to you?----->THE CONCLUSION! [Re: HYst]
medo7474 Offline
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