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#4914829 - 07/23/10 07:34 PM Re: Forester XT w/ auto tranny, how bad is it? [Re: Stock94si]
spotch... Offline
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Registered: 07/25/00
Posts: 56715
 Originally Posted By: Stock94si
 Originally Posted By: Impulsive
I'm fine with the manual love, it's the auto hate that annoys me.

Yep, quite tiresome.. GTR? sucks.. LFA? sucks.. 599? sucks..
Go have fun in a Peterbilt if a clutch pedal is the deciding factor. double-clutchin 18 gears yo!



Ever notice how people like me only *really* started bitching about the cars where an mtx isn't even an option? If Ferrari or BMW or VW or Nissan *insert car company here* want to make a car with an automatic or a DSG, that's great. I drove a prelude automatic once, and if anything will make you hate an auto for ruining a car, it would be a prelude. Did you see me railing about those ad nauseum? No, because Honda doesn't force you into one.

*THATS* what's annoying about this shit. The decreasing amount of options that are being offered to consumers. Not that a car comes in auto/DSG, but that they ONLY come with that transmission. Hell, the whole point of this thread (FXT) doesn't even come with a stick shift. Fucking weak.

It was bad enough when automatics were pushing manual transmissions off the map, now DSG is putting the final nails in the coffin. So pardon me if I'm a little disappointed that my favorite transmission option is disappearing as car companies increasingly cater only to the lazies and the "as long as it's fast, who cares what transmission it has?!" crowd.

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#4915148 - 07/23/10 10:49 PM Re: Forester XT w/ auto tranny, how bad is it? [Re: Chris92Sc2]
fellfrosch7 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Chris92Sc2
Spotch, I totally see your point but You've never mentioned driving a car thats mildly capable of getting out of its own way with an auto.

I think this is the key here. In a "slow" 15-16 second car, a manual vs automatic is a huge difference in driver involvement and fun factor, cause you can beat the shit out of the econobox and wait 3-4 seconds between shifts. Once you get into faster cars, driving them closer to 10/10ths takes more skill, and the difference is more negligible because either way, it's more exhilarating to drive a 12 second car than a 16 second one.

I don't know if I'm getting my point across here so I'll probably get buried. My argument for manual cars is that when I was a freshman in college, I got bent over to the tune of ~$1600 to fix a busted auto trans in my Dodge Intrepid. I swore them off since then if I can avoid it. Case in point, my Maxima has been driving around with a busted bearing and about 2/3rd of its fluid gone - but it still drives and shifts fine, although with a bit of noise. Autos are an all or nothing affair in most cases.

On a related note... http://www.autoblog.com/2010/07/21/car-and-driver-launches-save-the-manuals-campaign-w-vide/
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#4915177 - 07/23/10 11:13 PM Re: Forester XT w/ auto tranny, how bad is it? [Re: spotch...]
Pessimistic/Realistic By Nature Offline
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That doesn't bother me, it's the whole "OMG, you don't row gears in your DD, so you're a pussy" talk. Like I didn't drive manuals for 10 years. It depends on what you buy and which option is better. I've driven enough shitty manuals to appreciate a good auto and I'll go manual on my next car likely, but I don't just blindly check the manual box. Shitty shifters and clunky transmissions ruin the experience more than they help it. I've said it 100 times that it's the new millennium and car makers still can't make a nice smooth manual transmission (with a few exceptions)?
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#4915178 - 07/23/10 11:16 PM Re: Forester XT w/ auto tranny, how bad is it? [Re: fellfrosch7]
spotch... Offline
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 Quote:
I think this is the key here. In a "slow" 15-16 second car, a manual vs automatic is a huge difference in driver involvement and fun factor, cause you can beat the shit out of the econobox and wait 3-4 seconds between shifts. Once you get into faster cars, driving them closer to 10/10ths takes more skill, and the difference is more negligible because either way, it's more exhilarating to drive a 12 second car than a 16 second one.


I definitely see what you're saying.

Here's the thing though... Of the 8000 miles I've put on the 3 so far, very *very* few of them are at 10/10ths. Even when I'm grannying it around town and not asking anything of my vehicle, driving an automatic drives me nuts. It's the reason I *always* go for the keys to the 3, even when it involves playing 'musical cars' in the street to get Fit out of the way, and even when I'm taking a little trip where the short wheelbase and lighter weight of the Fit *should* make it the more enjoyable car but can't because it's got that damn atx.

If I was in a racing environment I think you're right. At 10/10ths in a fast car and a competitive environment, you're so wrapped up in just going faster that you're pretty damn involved in the process either way. I think I would still miss the mtx, but maybe not as much?

But for every other time I'm in a car, going 0-60 in 8-15 seconds like the rest of traffic is, going anywhere from 2 to 8 tenths on public roads, I just prefer the involvement of shifting my own gears. Letting something else do it for me makes me feel disconnected from the process of driving, more like a spectator and less like the doer. I feel like I"m missing out on fun. You know? I enjoy the extra control of the mtx, but I enjoy going through the motions too. I just like it. So even when I'm running to the store or on some other random trip where I'm in no rush and I'll never get above 4000rpm, I feel like something's missing if I'm not in an mtx. It's just not the same. For me the boredom isn't a byproduct of driving a slow car and having an atx make it even slower, it's a byproduct of not being as involved in the driving process as I enjoy being.


Cool link, too.

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#4915186 - 07/23/10 11:20 PM Re: Forester XT w/ auto tranny, how bad is it? [Re: Pessimistic/Realistic By Nature]
spotch... Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Impulsive
That doesn't bother me, it's the whole "OMG, you don't row gears in your DD, so you're a pussy" talk.


Please. Like you're not a pussy.
;\)


 Quote:
Like I didn't drive manuals for 10 years. It depends on what you buy and which option is better. I've driven enough shitty manuals to appreciate a good auto and I'll go manual on my next car likely, but I don't just blindly check the manual box. Shitty shifters and clunky transmissions ruin the experience more than they help it. I've said it 100 times that it's the new millennium and car makers still can't make a nice smooth manual transmission (with a few exceptions)?


yeah, you have had some shit luck with transmissions. I mean hell, my neon transmission was decent and the whole transmission probably only cost about 50 cents total lol dodge. Come to think of it, even the shifter on my old free 1985 mazda 626 that fell through the floor and had to be ghetto-fastened to the floorpan shifted o.k. I mean it had a shit ton of play (I did the rigging, so that explains some of it lol) but it never snagged or hung going into gear or anything. And that fucker had well over 200k of unmaintained miles on it!

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#4915189 - 07/23/10 11:21 PM Re: Forester XT w/ auto tranny, how bad is it? [Re: fellfrosch7]
theLoon Offline
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Yeah, I think it's definately a "there's a time and a place" thing for autos. I've owned two cars with auto trannys. The first was a '62 Mercedes 220SE, and an auto made perfect sense in that car--a big 4-door sedan, loafer inline-5, lots of metal and chrome and soft springs. The other is my GN, where again the auto makes perfect sense. While you can sometimes coax it around corners, it really prefers to do its thing in a straight line, and holding on to the steering wheel with both hands is reasonably prudent.

All my other cars have been manuals, and they've either been much lighter than the Merc, or much slower than the GN. The one memorable car where I can honestly compare manual vs. auto was my '97 Maxima. Manual tranny=fun-yet-practical. Auto tranny=what the fuck is this shit?
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#4915209 - 07/23/10 11:28 PM Re: Forester XT w/ auto tranny, how bad is it? [Re: spotch...]
Pessimistic/Realistic By Nature Offline
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Registered: 11/28/99
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 Originally Posted By: spotch

yeah, you have had some shit luck with transmissions.


I don't know if I'd call it luck other than my Mustang. I admit, I was not driving Miata's, but still, I'd expect a bit more. i drove a Dodge Dakota Manual and a 2500 Hemi truck and a Dodge Cummins and while the shifter sucked, I could operated that thing with my pinky.

Isuzu Impulse RS, best shifting manual I've owned. But missed second one time (locked me out) and second was never the same.

Mustang - The T5 shifted like ass from day one. A rebuild, Pro5.0, 6 types of fluid, new quadrant+cable...still shifted like ass and pedal effort was huge.

Spec V - ass. Fluid times 5, no luck.

RSX I drove was alright, but crunched second everytime.

SRT-4 - wasn't too bad. Upshifting was good, powershifting was easy, Mopar shifter worked well and was cheap, but downshifting and cold sucked ass.

FXT - actually pretty good with bushings and a short shifter. But again, bad downshifting, poor bad weather operation and when I replaced the clutch, the shop fucked it (lots of chatter/lock out).

Nothing like pulling out for a left turn, hitting the gas, going for second and the car doesn't want to go in gear while traffic is bearing down on you.

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#4915396 - 07/24/10 02:55 AM Re: Forester XT w/ auto tranny, how bad is it? [Re: Pessimistic/Realistic By Nature]
Serendipitous Offline
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Impulsive, you buy cars with terrible transmissions. If you want to appreciate a good stick, you are going to need to live with a complete lack of torque. It's the only way.
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#4915423 - 07/24/10 06:49 AM Re: Forester XT w/ auto tranny, how bad is it? [Re: fellfrosch7]
Chris92Sc2 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: fellfrosch7
 Originally Posted By: Chris92Sc2
Spotch, I totally see your point but You've never mentioned driving a car thats mildly capable of getting out of its own way with an auto.

I think this is the key here. In a "slow" 15-16 second car, a manual vs automatic is a huge difference in driver involvement and fun factor, cause you can beat the shit out of the econobox and wait 3-4 seconds between shifts. Once you get into faster cars, driving them closer to 10/10ths takes more skill, and the difference is more negligible because either way, it's more exhilarating to drive a 12 second car than a 16 second one.

I don't know if I'm getting my point across here so I'll probably get buried. My argument for manual cars is that when I was a freshman in college, I got bent over to the tune of ~$1600 to fix a busted auto trans in my Dodge Intrepid. I swore them off since then if I can avoid it. Case in point, my Maxima has been driving around with a busted bearing and about 2/3rd of its fluid gone - but it still drives and shifts fine, although with a bit of noise. Autos are an all or nothing affair in most cases.

On a related note... http://www.autoblog.com/2010/07/21/car-and-driver-launches-save-the-manuals-campaign-w-vide/

That pretty much exactly what my point is. My LGT went 11.8 with an auto and was fun as shit to drive daily. Surprise the hell out of ricers evertime they rolled up. I've also owned numerous 15-16 second cars (2 80's gti's, a 97 gti, 91 318is) that have all been M/T and it made for an awesome daily drive but I wouldn't consider them anywhere near as fun of an everyday drive.
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#4915610 - 07/24/10 11:13 AM Re: Forester XT w/ auto tranny, how bad is it? [Re: spotch...]
Euphoricuck Offline
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Registered: 11/05/03
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 Originally Posted By: spotch
and instead confuse their enjoyment of the whiz-bang of a powerful 'go' pedal with driving enthusiasm. If the go-pedal is plenty to entertain you and 300+hp by itself somehow equals driver involvement, then that's great for you. Super.
win.

lol
so was that suped up turbo auto your wifes or yours Chris?

traffic is a sorry excuse for getting a yawn fest auto.
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#4915612 - 07/24/10 11:18 AM Re: Forester XT w/ auto tranny, how bad is it? [Re: spotch...]
Euphoricuck Offline
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Registered: 11/05/03
Posts: 92703
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 Quote:
I think this is the key here. In a "slow" 15-16 second car, a manual vs automatic is a huge difference in driver involvement and fun factor, cause you can beat the shit out of the econobox and wait 3-4 seconds between shifts. Once you get into faster cars, driving them closer to 10/10ths takes more skill, and the difference is more negligible because either way, it's more exhilarating to drive a 12 second car than a 16 second one.


lol wat
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#4915920 - 07/24/10 03:00 PM Re: Forester XT w/ auto tranny, how bad is it? [Re: Chris92Sc2]
scootergeek Offline
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Autos are great in a truck or RV.

They just encourage multi-tasking and by extension lousy driving, otherwise.

cheers,
scott
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#4916267 - 07/24/10 06:26 PM Re: Forester XT w/ auto tranny, how bad is it? [Re: Euphoricuck]
Chris92Sc2 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Euphoric
 Originally Posted By: spotch
and instead confuse their enjoyment of the whiz-bang of a powerful 'go' pedal with driving enthusiasm. If the go-pedal is plenty to entertain you and 300+hp by itself somehow equals driver involvement, then that's great for you. Super.
win.

lol
so was that suped up turbo auto your wifes or yours Chris?

traffic is a sorry excuse for getting a yawn fest auto.


Reading comprehension troubles?
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#4916448 - 07/24/10 08:24 PM Re: Forester XT w/ auto tranny, how bad is it? [Re: Chris92Sc2]
Euphoricuck Offline
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explain
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#4917153 - 07/25/10 01:35 PM Re: Forester XT w/ auto tranny, how bad is it? [Re: Euphoricuck]
Chris92Sc2 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Euphoric
explain

I did. Read the thread jackass. \:D
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#4917158 - 07/25/10 01:38 PM Re: Forester XT w/ auto tranny, how bad is it? [Re: Euphoricuck]
skierd Offline
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Driving is boring. My next four wheeled DD-type vehicle will likely be an automatic. The car/truck/van/suv that I eventually get will be for shitty weather and hauling the bike places I don't want to ride to (or ride back from). If I need driving pleasure I'll take the bike.
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#4917164 - 07/25/10 01:45 PM Re: Forester XT w/ auto tranny, how bad is it? [Re: skierd]
scootergeek Offline
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 Originally Posted By: skierd
Driving is boring.


You're doing it wrong.

cheers,
scott
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#4917177 - 07/25/10 02:10 PM Re: Forester XT w/ auto tranny, how bad is it? [Re: scootergeek]
spotch... Offline
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 Originally Posted By: scootergeek
 Originally Posted By: skierd
Driving is boring.


You're doing it wrong.

cheers,
scott



Yeah... I gotta say, as much as I liked riding my SV and my scooters, they absolutely do not replace the joy of driving a car. It's a totally different pleasure. Same way that bj's can't replace intercourse (or vice versa).

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#4917190 - 07/25/10 02:23 PM Re: Forester XT w/ auto tranny, how bad is it? [Re: spotch...]
skierd Offline
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For the most part, it did for me. 99/100, I'd rather ride. Racing would be a different story, but give me a long twisty stretch of public pavement and I'd rather be on two than four. Hell even traffic isn't bad, so long as its not 95+ out, as I can usually actually see and maneuver better in it now. And I loved my miata's, karts, etc.

Oh, and on topic, I absolutely hated how all of the subaru auto's drove, turbos being worse than the n/a cars because of lag.
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#4917220 - 07/25/10 02:53 PM Re: Forester XT w/ auto tranny, how bad is it? [Re: skierd]
Chris92Sc2 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: skierd

Oh, and on topic, I absolutely hated how all of the subaru auto's drove, turbos being worse than the n/a cars because of lag.

In stock form they are fucking terrible. Luckily easily fixable if you don't mind flashing the ecu.
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#4917255 - 07/25/10 03:25 PM Re: Forester XT w/ auto tranny, how bad is it? [Re: Chris92Sc2]
bushidozin Offline
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How much does a flash change the behavior of the car?
And I would absolutely prefer a manual, but just trying to find something halfway fun that I can carry two kids in under 10k is starting to drive me nuts. I've nearly given up on finding something very "sporty" or fast that suits me, so at least being able to row through the gears could make me feel like it's a bit sportier.
And if anyone has any other recommendations, I am more than open at this point.
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#4917275 - 07/25/10 03:40 PM Re: Forester XT w/ auto tranny, how bad is it? [Re: bushidozin]
MIGHTY gb Offline
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A flash will make a pretty large difference, but IMO it still cant fix the failure of the 4spd auto that the Forester comes with. Legacy GT's with the 5spd auto are MUCH better.

I really hated the forester 4spd.

This is gonna sound silly, but you should consider a Volvo V70 T5.

They are FWD, but turbo, and a lot came with manuals. They look cool IMO, and they sound great with breathing mods. The motor is stout and reliable as well \:\)
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#4917279 - 07/25/10 03:43 PM Re: Forester XT w/ auto tranny, how bad is it? [Re: bushidozin]
Chris92Sc2 Offline
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If its done right it wakes the car up alot. Its easy to gut the cats and put solid tune on it. It would be pretty quick for what it is, but it won't be a sporty driver.
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#4917281 - 07/25/10 03:45 PM Re: Forester XT w/ auto tranny, how bad is it? [Re: MIGHTY gb]
MIGHTY gb Offline
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They're easy to find non-beaten, they will run forever, have comfy comfy interiors, all the creature comforts, and they are CHEAAAAP on insurance.

I'd suggest an R but the earlier awd systems were shitty and they were auto only. \:\(
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#4917316 - 07/25/10 04:12 PM Re: Forester XT w/ auto tranny, how bad is it? [Re: MIGHTY gb]
spotch... Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Gb
A flash will make a pretty large difference, but IMO it still cant fix the failure of the 4spd auto that the Forester comes with. Legacy GT's with the 5spd auto are MUCH better.

I really hated the forester 4spd.

This is gonna sound silly, but you should consider a Volvo V70 T5.

They are FWD, but turbo, and a lot came with manuals. They look cool IMO, and they sound great with breathing mods. The motor is stout and reliable as well \:\)



This


Also, we've been looking at volvo wagons and foresters on and off for a few months and it seems like the volvos are slightly bigger in the back. At least they would fit our two dogs and two passengers *slightly* better than the forester would.

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#4917334 - 07/25/10 04:24 PM Re: Forester XT w/ auto tranny, how bad is it? [Re: spotch...]
Chris92Sc2 Offline
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And lower to the ground out back making it easier for the dogs to get in. I love Volvo wagons.
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#4917357 - 07/25/10 04:46 PM Re: Forester XT w/ auto tranny, how bad is it? [Re: Chris92Sc2]
MIGHTY gb Offline
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Ive had mine for 3 years, 35k miles. All its needed is oil, gas, brakes, and a front right strut mount.

Pros: So comfy, so practical, love the way the I5 sounds, it couldn't be MORE under the policia's radar, cheap insurance, great stock stereo, awesome dual zone climate control, great heated seats, QUIET INSIDE, and the fucker gets right up and out of its own way on the highway.

Cons: Awful on gas (20mpg mixed0, some replacement parts are quite expensive, the awd is picky, the auto isn't the best (but its not NEARLY the worst).


Car has been good to me. It's a 1998 V70 AWD. 2.4L Turbo. Had 51k miles on it when I bought it, I paid 8500.

It currently needs new struts, and they are REALLY expensive.

Unfortunately the early turbo awd volvos have really stupid self leveling nivomat suspension. 450 bucks for a pair of rear struts. and thats dealer COST.

The fwd's are easy and cheap just like any other car.

I've got a couple mods on mine, an intake, ipd grille, yellow fogs, 5k hids, 15% tints all around, uk market clear corners, and some speakers.




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#4917380 - 07/25/10 05:09 PM Re: Forester XT w/ auto tranny, how bad is it? [Re: MIGHTY gb]
scootergeek Offline
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God damn but I love Volvo wagons.

just saying,
scott
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#4917419 - 07/25/10 05:41 PM Re: Forester XT w/ auto tranny, how bad is it? [Re: scootergeek]
MIGHTY gb Offline
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 Originally Posted By: scootergeek
God damn but I love Volvo wagons.

just saying,
scott


So do I. IMHO they really need a couple mods to get rid of the granpa attractant though. The stock chrome grille is awful, and the fishbowl look is out.
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#4917548 - 07/25/10 07:19 PM Re: Forester XT w/ auto tranny, how bad is it? [Re: MIGHTY gb]
spotch... Offline
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Every automaker on the planet needs to look very closely at this picture:




And realize that *THAT* is what a trunk should be like on a hatchback/wagon/suv.

Do you guys realize that the vast majority (all?) of small SUV's I've seen don't have this much trunk space? Same thing with newer wagons (outback, accord crosstour, etc). It's like cars are getting bigger and heavier, and yet they're getting smaller and smaller on the inside. It's fucking insane.
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#4917691 - 07/25/10 08:41 PM Re: Forester XT w/ auto tranny, how bad is it? [Re: spotch...]
danl Offline
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Shut the fuck up, all of you.
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#4917707 - 07/25/10 08:51 PM Re: Forester XT w/ auto tranny, how bad is it? [Re: danl]
spotch... Offline
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Registered: 07/25/00
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 Originally Posted By: danl
Shut the fuck up, all of you.


YOU FIRST

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#4918177 - 07/26/10 07:24 AM Re: Forester XT w/ auto tranny, how bad is it? [Re: spotch...]
bushidozin Offline
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That was actually one of the other cars I started out looking at! I read quite a few reviews about expensive repairs, and a few about questionable reliability and was unsure about them. Sounds like I might need to start looking again! Any particular years/generations to seek or avoid?
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#4918232 - 07/26/10 08:08 AM Re: Forester XT w/ auto tranny, how bad is it? [Re: bushidozin]
MIGHTY gb Offline
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I'd stay away from the early AWDs (the v70 started in 98, and the first generation went until 01) but otherwise they should be fine. Volvo has been making the 2.3 and 2.4L turbo for a long long time. Ive done all my own work on the car and it's been fine.

And yeah some parts will be expensive, I spent $150 on front rotors recently direct from volvo, but the nice parts are that the new rotors come with brand new caliper mounting bolts already pre-anti-siezed, and you get new rotor pins and everything else.

They are a good solid car \:\)
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#4918250 - 07/26/10 08:17 AM Re: Forester XT w/ auto tranny, how bad is it? [Re: spotch...]
FCobra94 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: spotch
And realize that *THAT* is what a trunk should be like on a hatchback/wagon/suv.

Do you guys realize that the vast majority (all?) of small SUV's I've seen don't have this much trunk space? Same thing with newer wagons (outback, accord crosstour, etc). It's like cars are getting bigger and heavier, and yet they're getting smaller and smaller on the inside. It's fucking insane.

I felt the same way about the new FX35. I really wanted to like it, but for such a huge vehicle outside, it has less space than my Civic does on the inside \:\(
_________________________
'07 335i

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