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#3566274 - 03/16/09 12:06 AM The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor
progressi Offline
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ER,,,probably... heheh

Shamelessly stolen from Rawfish's post in Out There,as quoted from Eric Hsu.

 Quote:
1. The Hyundai 4B11T is not the same as the Mitsubishi EVO X 4B11T. While the Hyundai 4B is similar in many ways, there are very few common parts. The block, head, pistons, rods, crank, etc. are all similar, but different. Different in that they are lower grade. Hyundai’s rods are powder sintered whereas Mitsubishi’s are forged. Mitsubishi’s pistons are made by Mahle and have a oil reservoir underneath the dish like a Porsche turbo piston. Hyundai’s cast piston is no different in strength compared to one of their passenger cars. Hyundai’s 4B block has far less webbing (this is visible from the exterior). The differences go on and on. That doesn’t mean the Hyundai parts suck. It’s just that the Mitsubishi 4B11T is way better out of the box. While the parts are different, that doesn’t mean that the Mitsubishi pistons, rods, and crank cannot fit into a Hyundai 4B.

2. The cylinder head is different enough that the exhaust manifold and intake manifold flanges and gaskets are not common. They are absolutely different so there will be no manifold and turbo swapping. This is an absolute fact since Gary tried fitting the manifolds from an EVO X. The Mitsu engine is mounted transverse and it is very likely that the castings wouldn’t work anyway. That’s too bad since the Cosworth EVO X 4B11T CNC ported big valve cylinder head will be available to the public soon. See #6 below on the cams.

3. The LSD in the sports version is a gear type LSD and not a clutch type.

4. There is an orifice in the clutch’s hydraulic plumbing that needs to be removed for performance purposes (as do many other cars).

5. The Hyundai V-6 is very similar in design to the Nissan VQ35. If you’re going to make a new V6, you’d be a fool not to copy, oh sorry uh….model your new engine after the VQ35 since it is the best damn V6 in production right now.

6. While the cams are SIMILAR in appearance, they may not be identical like the GenesisDriven blog states. The blog post states that their Korean source says, “With your pictures send to Korea, our engineer and tech dept. have confirmed its identical as 2.0 turbo Theta for those cams.” I’m not sure what kind of engineer looks at a picture on a computer screen, makes a foolish assumption, and says, “Yep, those are identical.” I don’t think I want that engineer designing my parts. Regardless, the Hyundai and Mitsu 4B11T camshafts need to be precisely measured before saying that they are “identical”. I sure hope they’re the same because Cosworth already offers the best damn EVO X cams that money can buy.

It sounds like as uppity as the Evo boys are over there on EvoM,they were right. Very different motors.

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#3566302 - 03/16/09 12:30 AM Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor [Re: progressi]
orangegrey Offline
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 Originally Posted By: progressi
3. The LSD in the sports version is a gear type LSD and not a clutch type.
Yeah, those Torsens are such garbage. I'm sure everybody was looking forward to rebuilding their clutch pack diffs every few years.
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#3566320 - 03/16/09 12:39 AM Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor [Re: orangegrey]
progressi Offline
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I never really thought about it either way,but GRM seems to prefer the clutch LSD for it's progressive and predictable nature,among other things.

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/whats-diff/

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#3566657 - 03/16/09 08:39 AM Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor [Re: progressi]
UglyValiant Offline
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Again, my points from earlier still stand. Using either different grades of parts (such as powdered sintered vs forged) or different parts suppliers (Mahle vs whoever) doesn't change that they are basically the same engine.

Likewise, having different mounting for different manifolds aren't that uncommon...doesn't change that the basic head design is, again, the same. Now, one interesting thing would be "Could I swap a mitsu head onto a hyundai block?" Again, this would prove beyond a doubt that these engines are for all intents and purposes, identical.

His point on the cam is fairly specious since we don't know in what respects the engineer was talking. Was he comparing cam specs? Doubt it since any reasonable engineer would know they can't blindly look at a cam and derive that the specs are identical....BUT, one can look and reasonably approximate distances b/w journal, journal sizes, length, etc to conclude within reason that the cams are identical enough to swap in place of each other. I'm fairly certain the engineer saw enough to conclude it's a safe bet.

Let's offer another analogy, since there is a billion left to use:
The gen 1 350 chevy and L98's. You couldn't simply swap on an intake manifold from the L98 to the gen1 350, nor likewise swap a gen 1 manifold to an L98. Sure, they used different parts for pistons/rods/etc; Hell, you couldn't even simply swap cams among that engine due to the different provisions one had for roller cams...but there is no denying that they are basically the same engine. Take it further to one that's even further differentiated than the gen1 and L98...the gen1 and LT1...yet, for all their differences, still the same basic engine.

All this blog demonstrated is the amount of cognitive dissonance that evo-fan-boi's are experiencing over their precious evo sharing basic engines w/ hyundai's and calibers. Maybe their experiencing side-effects from wearing too much hair gel and axe cologne?
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#3566749 - 03/16/09 09:28 AM Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor [Re: UglyValiant]
SpcNA[ZX] Offline
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Well how far do you want to generalize this? It's the same motor because it's a four-cylinder, it's the same motor because they're both turbocharged, etc. I mean sure they're going to share a ton of similarities because they're both based off the "world motor" or whatever, but the Hyundai version also has many, many differences that most would call inferior.

The rods are allegedly inferior
The pistons are allegedly inferior
The block is allegedly inferior
The intake/exhaust manifolds are different
The turbo is different
The head is who knows (though I doubt it's the same personally)

These all add up, and I'm not trying to rain on any Hyundai fanboi's parade, it's probably one of my most anticipated new cars in a loooooong time (2.0t R-Spec plz) but sure there are similarities, everyone knows it's BASED off the world motor, but it's obvious (and comes as no surprise) that some compromises were made. I guess time will tell when more people tear them open and actually get some more quantitative data though. My personal hope is that 400ish whp will be attainable with the stock bottom end but we'll see \:\)
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#3566782 - 03/16/09 09:41 AM Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor [Re: SpcNA[ZX]]
scootergeek Offline
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Nobody said they were identical, what was said is that they use the same architecture and they are in the same family. Not the family of all four bangers, but much more closely related than that.

cheers,
scott
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#3567168 - 03/16/09 11:50 AM Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor [Re: SpcNA[ZX]]
UglyValiant Offline
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 Originally Posted By: SpcNA[ZX
*SNIFF* IT'S NOT THE SAME!!!!




Okay, the mopar 273 v8 and 340 mopar are basically the same engine. Yes, they do use different rods, crank, pistons, valves, different (and uninterchangable) intake manifolds, different exhaust manifolds, different VALVES (omg!!!), blah, blah, blah, blah. Doesn't change either from being basically the SAME engine.

The ford 302 and the mopar 273 are different engines too. They TOO use different rods, pistons, intake manifolds (uninterchangable too!), different exhaust manifolds, different valves, blah blah blah blah blah. Oh, sure...they're both v8's, NA, use distributers, and are generally mounted at the front of vehicles, so there going to be some similarities.

Listen, they're world motors. They are basically the same engine. I didn't say each were as capable, nor did I even imply it (although basically, they are). To act as if they're as related as a honda and toyota 4 cylinders is fucking retarded. To act as if they are only distant cousins is fucking retarded. They are two brothers as similar as can be without being identical.

This is the nature of engine families...stop grasping at straws and learn to live with it.

I mean, it's hilarious...watching the mitsu fanboi's squirm is like watching Paris Hilton refusing to accept a sister she discovers living in a trailer park; "Like, omg! she's so....*bleh*!"
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#3567285 - 03/16/09 12:25 PM Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor [Re: orangegrey]
skierd Offline
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 Originally Posted By: orangegrey
 Originally Posted By: progressi
3. The LSD in the sports version is a gear type LSD and not a clutch type.
Yeah, those Torsens are such garbage. I'm sure everybody was looking forward to rebuilding their clutch pack diffs every few years.


Or every few events, if you're an autocrosser. Gear-type FTW for cars that are driven on the street as well as raced.

Still, for $27k I think I'd rather have a new mustang.


Edited by skierd (03/16/09 12:35 PM)
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#3567325 - 03/16/09 12:37 PM Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor [Re: UglyValiant]
CommonGutterTrash Offline
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This sounds a LOT like the 4g64 vs 4gcs
pretty much the Only similarity was the block-casting, And even THEN, there were huge differences.

Although.. a 4g64 crank, rods, and pistons meant you got a tall-deck big-bore motor that mitsu never actually made.
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#3567336 - 03/16/09 12:41 PM Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor [Re: SpcNA[ZX]]
Moof Offline
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 Originally Posted By: SpcNA[ZX
] My personal hope is that 400ish whp will be attainable with the stock bottom end but we'll see \:\)



I believe there are videos on Youtube that affirm this.
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#3567406 - 03/16/09 01:08 PM Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor [Re: UglyValiant]
progressi Offline
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Um,Eric Hsu,IIRC is a guy that runs a shop that mods alot of stuff other than Mitsus,in fact I think they do a ton of Subie stuff. Im sure someone else knows this. I think they have a Genesis on order to build parts for it.

Seems to me that there were alot of posts saying "a tune and bolt-ons=100whp like the Evo,cuz it's the same". Doesnt appear that way.

As far as Mitsu pedigree? LOL Im not so concerned by that. DSMs danced with Neons in the past.

Edit:XS engineering's site shows that they have a Skyline project cars,support Subaru WRX,and Evos. Eric Hsu being a jaded Evo fanboy? I dont think so. I thought it was an interesting writeup.

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#3567680 - 03/16/09 02:49 PM Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor [Re: progressi]
danl Offline
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Needs moar 4g63 /thread
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#3567731 - 03/16/09 03:14 PM Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor [Re: UglyValiant]
SpcNA[ZX] Offline
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 Originally Posted By: UglyValiant
I mean, it's hilarious...watching the mitsu fanboi's squirm is like watching Paris Hilton refusing to accept a sister she discovers living in a trailer park; "Like, omg! she's so....*bleh*!"


Apparently you missed the part where I said I'm eagerly anticipating the 2.0t R-Spec's release, and affirmed that sure they're all "based" off the world motor platform.

If you think I'm brand-uppity because I have a few mitsu's in my past then you're obviously misinformed. I think the ONLY thing they got right was the motor in ANY mitsu I've owned, and even then they have their quirks. All these people saying "It's g0t an EbO Mot0r DoG!" are just wrong, are they similar? Sure thing, they're about as similar as a motor can be with different rods, pistons, block, head, etc. Kinda like Danny DeVito and Arnie in twins \:\) Alright, that's stretching it but as I said before for as many similarities there are differences. Do I care? Nah not really, I'm just anxious to see how the 2.0t responds to mods \:\)
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#3567874 - 03/16/09 04:00 PM Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor [Re: SpcNA[ZX]]
Chris92Sc2 Offline
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Oohhh, I just dropped some Mahles in my car! Now I can make Evo type power!!!
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#3567976 - 03/16/09 04:34 PM Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor [Re: Chris92Sc2]
cliff st-clair Offline
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People were concerned about the similarities because of power potential. Now that we see that the pistons and rods are not the same, I think it is impossible to say they are the same. I am disappointed. I was expecting the 2.0t to possibly handle 350whp. It doesn't seem like that is going to be the case. Oh well...
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#3568061 - 03/16/09 04:55 PM Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor [Re: cliff st-clair]
Driven Offline
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... just tossing this out there... but...

couldn't you just swap the mitsu motor in for the hyundai version? ?
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#3568241 - 03/16/09 05:57 PM Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor [Re: Driven]
CommonGutterTrash Offline
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yes.
I'm like 37% sure.
the only way it's a "no" is if hyundai uses a different batch of Sensors/locations

They most-likely use the same motor-mounts.
that's the idea, isn't it?
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#3568429 - 03/16/09 07:03 PM Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor [Re: CommonGutterTrash]
Euphoricuck Offline
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mitsu guys getting their panties in a bunch? no waiiiiiii ;\)

anyways, we will have to wait and see what the stock 2.0T can handle... im sure itll do 300whp no prob(most likely more). ... thats just based off other "weak" motors doing that already...
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#3568516 - 03/16/09 07:33 PM Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor [Re: Euphoricuck]
danl Offline
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#3568520 - 03/16/09 07:34 PM Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor [Re: Euphoricuck]
cliff st-clair Offline
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I think it's going to be hard to make over 300whp, based on what I've read so far. I am worried about hyundai putting some thin ass rods in there, and a bunch of other cheap parts, which explains why the car is so cheap. Moreover, the turbo is way too small to perform at that power level.

I was hoping this car would be like the old DSM; minor tweaks and big power. My faith is no longer.
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#3568557 - 03/16/09 07:51 PM Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor [Re: cliff st-clair]
danl Offline
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Whathefuckobviousleyyouhaven'theardabouttheebolushunmadebymitsubishiitgoesvroomvroomandnotlikeamazdaplustheyaresofasttheydrivethemselvezzzzz

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#3568961 - 03/16/09 10:14 PM Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor [Re: SpcNA[ZX]]
UglyValiant Offline
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 Originally Posted By: SpcNA[ZX
...are they similar? Sure thing, they're about as similar as a motor can be with different rods, pistons, block, head, etc. Kinda like Danny DeVito and Arnie in twins \:\)
They are as similar as a Truck LS engine and the LS1. Basically the same.

They are certainly as similar as a NA cobra 4.6 v8 and that of a blown cobra 4.6. Basically the same.

Trust me, you don't change crank/rods/pistons/manifolds of your small block ford and end up with a small block chevy.
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#3569005 - 03/16/09 10:22 PM Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor [Re: UglyValiant]
SpcNA[ZX] Offline
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That's great, so like I said in the previous posts they're derived from the world motor platform, have a lot of similarities, and are about as similar as two motors can be that have different rods, pistons, block, manifolds, turbo, possibly head etc. etc. \:\)
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#3569035 - 03/16/09 10:32 PM Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor [Re: SpcNA[ZX]]
UglyValiant Offline
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Ah, clearly brevity is thy enemy. Admitting they are the same engine is much simpler.
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#3569155 - 03/16/09 11:11 PM Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor [Re: UglyValiant]
SpcNA[ZX] Offline
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They're definitely based off the same platform of motor \:\)
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#3569371 - 03/17/09 12:47 AM Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor [Re: SpcNA[ZX]]
Impulsive Online   nohc
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Meh. Mags are getting low 15's out of these with a TD04 turbo. I don't see anything killer without a turbo upgrade.

I was hoping the underated rumors were true. Still a kick ass car for the price.
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#3569403 - 03/17/09 01:04 AM Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor [Re: Impulsive]
SpcNA[ZX] Offline
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I *heard* it was about the size of a 13G, with a 3" turbo-back exhaust, intake filter, and boost controller they might be able to eek out some high 13s or low 14s maybe?
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#3569452 - 03/17/09 02:07 AM Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor [Re: SpcNA[ZX]]
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[/QUOTE]
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#3569458 - 03/17/09 02:22 AM Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor [Re: cliff st-clair]
Euphoricuck Offline
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i agree it will probably be a struggle for the turbo to hit that, but i dont see why the bottom end cant withstand 300 whp.... unless there is a real big screw up ala mazdaspeed 6 or osmething..
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#3569700 - 03/17/09 08:49 AM Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor [Re: Euphoricuck]
SiAdam Offline
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Yea, that bottom end looks beefier than a b16a, rods specifically and you can make 400whp all day stock block.
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#3569784 - 03/17/09 09:24 AM Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor [Re: SiAdam]
CLAY'S 99SI Offline
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I'm sure some of you have seen this vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_UN0cvXr7g
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#3570252 - 03/17/09 12:14 PM Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor [Re: CLAY'S 99SI]
cliff st-clair Offline
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Wow..those rods look pretty beefy for sure.
We will have to wait I guess... The verdict is not out yet.
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#3570254 - 03/17/09 12:15 PM Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor [Re: CLAY'S 99SI]
allan r Offline
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Jeez you guys, this is like arguing what the definition of "is" is. The two engines come from the same engine family, but here to prevent defining them as "the same."

"They are the same basic engine design using different major components including internals, manifolds, turbocharger, (ECU?) and supporting hardware. By all but the most generic definition, there are enough significant differences in componentry and capability that prevents referring to them as one and the same."

Problem solved.
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#3572097 - 03/17/09 10:05 PM Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor [Re: allan r]
orangegrey Offline
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Edmunds dyno.
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#3572625 - 03/18/09 01:11 AM Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor [Re: orangegrey]
progressi Offline
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Registered: 06/01/01
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Euphoric,is this puke and die?

If it is,is it Mitsu's fault?

Will it be responsive at 1200 rpm?

And finally,would it be fun to drive?

Before the "other" Euphy comes out,Im just messing with you.

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