(Post Master Supreme)

04/15/07 02:57 PM

Discuss: Eagle Talon / Mitsu Eclipse / Plymouth Laser

Good stories, bad stories, story stories. How reliable are they when stock? How reliable are then when lightly bolt-on modified? How are they when pushing 400hp? Let's hear everyone's input/output.

(Post Master Supreme)

04/15/07 03:07 PM

Re: Discuss: Eagle Talon / Mitsu Eclipse / Plymouth Laser

1g's are tiny on the inside. My cousin had a Plymouth Laser and I found that I had to climb in head first because if I sat down first, the door opening was right at my shoulder and there was no way to fold my neck to get my head in the car.

Oh, and immediately after doing a top speed run and hitting the limiter, he found one of his lower front control arms cracked in half, lol guardian angel.

cheers,
scott

(Post Master Jr)

04/15/07 03:17 PM

Re: Discuss: Eagle Talon / Mitsu Eclipse / Plymouth Laser

I have mixed feelings about DSMs. On one side, I see a number of them that perform very well, but on the other side I see constant failures across the board in all categories. They seem to have a real reputation for "nickel and diming" the hell out of their owners. Build quality is sub-par to say the least. My buddy had a n/a 2g about 6 years back that broke an axle under normal driving with no mods @ 80k miles. The entire wheel went bouncing off in front of him as he skidded to a stop.

On a side note, I never understood the purpose of the bump in the hood, does anyone know why its there? Does it serve a purpose? My buddies and I always used to joke that the first one rolled off the assembly line and they couldn't close the hood, so they added the bump.

(Post Master Sr)

04/15/07 03:25 PM

Re: Discuss: Eagle Talon / Mitsu Eclipse / Plymouth Laser

I thought only the tubo models were considered dsm's.

(Post Master Supreme)

04/15/07 03:26 PM

Re: Discuss: Eagle Talon / Mitsu Eclipse / Plymouth Laser

Originally Posted By: Morbo

I have mixed feelings about DSMs. On one side, I see a number of them that perform very well, but on the other side I see constant failures across the board in all categories. They seem to have a real reputation for "nickel and diming" the hell out of their owners. Build quality is sub-par to say the least. My buddy had a n/a 2g about 6 years back that broke an axle under normal driving with no mods @ 80k miles. The entire wheel went bouncing off in front of him as he skidded to a stop.

On a side note, I never understood the purpose of the bump in the hood, does anyone know why its there? Does it serve a purpose? My buddies and I always used to joke that the first one rolled off the assembly line and they couldn't close the hood, so they added the bump.

the bump in the hood, at least on the 1g is to clear the cam/head cover. the cam gears are big and without that hump the hood wouldnt close.

i agree with everything else you said.

some can be good but many nickle and dime you. 2g's have rust problem and crankwalk issues. yes they do ryan.

1g's handle like turds but can be decently quick in a straight line for not so much money, but at this point they are old and will empty your pockets over time with all the little things going on you.
as soon as you do heavy mods itll cost the same as most other cars(and sometimes more depending on what you are buying..like suspension. there arent a lot of coilover options out there and the price can get really high)

i thought you just picked up a frikken truck?
do you have to have one of these "discuss" threads everyweek?

(Post Master Supreme)

04/15/07 03:28 PM

Re: Discuss: Eagle Talon / Mitsu Eclipse / Plymouth Laser

Originally Posted By: daemon

I thought only the tubo models were considered dsm's.

Everything built at the Diamond Star Motors plant in Normal, IL (while it was the Diamond Star plant, it's since returned to wholly owned by Mitsu) is a DSM.

cheers,
scott

(Post Master Jr)

04/15/07 03:30 PM

Re: Discuss: Eagle Talon / Mitsu Eclipse / Plymouth Laser

Originally Posted By: daemon

I thought only the tubo models were considered dsm's.

No, DSM refers to Diamond Star Motors, a joint venture between Mitsubishi and Chrysler. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_Star_Motors

D'oh. Treed.

(Post Master Supreme)

04/15/07 03:30 PM

Re: Discuss: Eagle Talon / Mitsu Eclipse / Plymouth Laser

Quote:

i thought you just picked up a frikken truck?
do you have to have one of these "discuss" threads everyweek?

I'm not looking to buy one. I just like to hear about vehicles.

(Post Master Supreme)

04/15/07 03:36 PM

Re: Discuss: Eagle Talon / Mitsu Eclipse / Plymouth Laser

It's good to see some people keeping their SvA traditions going.

cheers,
scott

(Post Master Sr)

04/15/07 03:40 PM

Re: Discuss: Eagle Talon / Mitsu Eclipse / Plymouth Laser

Originally Posted By: Morbo

Originally Posted By: daemon

I thought only the tubo models were considered dsm's.

No, DSM refers to Diamond Star Motors, a joint venture between Mitsubishi and Chrysler. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_Star_Motors

D'oh. Treed.

For some reason, I thought that only the engine in the turbocharged cars was made by Diamond Star Motors.

(Post Master Supreme)

04/15/07 03:40 PM

Re: Discuss: Eagle Talon / Mitsu Eclipse / Plymouth Laser

Originally Posted By: scootergeek

It's good to see some people keeping their SvA traditions going.

cheers,
scott

*cough* fridays *cough*

(Post Master Supreme)

04/15/07 03:50 PM

Re: Discuss: Eagle Talon / Mitsu Eclipse / Plymouth Laser

Originally Posted By: Euphoric

*cough* fridays *cough*

I'm going to start a new tradition. It'll be a picture of nothing parked in front of my house and everyone will have to guess what was stolen out of that space. It'll run about twice a year or so.

cheers,
scott

(Post Master Supreme)

04/15/07 04:11 PM

Re: Discuss: Eagle Talon / Mitsu Eclipse / Plymouth Laser

1g's (turbo models only):

Everything used in the car is extremely high quality and precision even by todays standards. The 6 bolt 4g63 has generous rod and main journal width making it a favorite for seasons of drag racing abuse without teardowns. The DOHC head with generous 10mm headbolts stays put and flows extremely well (even if the honda guys don't want to believe it). Were talking dual cams, 16v, distributorless ignition in 1989 with multi point fuel injection and a knock sensor that actually does something.

The drivetrain remains one of if not the fastest and strongest AWD platform from which to modify. Stock high mileage drivetrains go 10's and 11's at 120-130mph and 1.5-1.6 short times. Modified streetable transmissions go 8's and 9's.

92.5 up 1g's:

We saw the introduction of the 7 bolt motor. Thinner rod journals and smaller headbolts make the accounting department happy. The 4 bolt rear makes the early drag racers happy as its a direct swap.

2g's:

We see more "Americanizing" of the car with the smaller more torque friendly t25 turbo. A major engineering flaw introduces crankwalk. It effects only a small percentage of the vehicles but the DSM community is quick to react and protest. Its blown out of proportion. Mitsu doesen't cover it and many DSM diehards are outraged.

97 2g's:

The talon is dropped. The eclipse remains until 99 and sees a slight body update.

Administrator

(Post Master Supreme)

04/15/07 06:22 PM

Re: Discuss: Eagle Talon / Mitsu Eclipse / Plymouth Laser

I had a few general questions about DSM's too. I was looking to pick up a 2G DSM but most of these cars are at least 10 years old; meaning if I buy one it'll probably need a fresh motor or rebuild in the not-too-distant future. Is the JDM Mitsu Evo motor prone to crankwalk also? Will it bolt right in? Is wiring an issue? I think most hardcore 2G DSM'ers swap in the stronger 1G motor, but I'm pretty sure that here in PA it would never pass inspection. (Car must have an engine from the same year or newer; someone correct me if I'm wrong.) Is there a way to make a 1st gen swap legal? (swapping only certain components, etc)

(Post Master Supreme)

04/15/07 09:03 PM

Re: Discuss: Eagle Talon / Mitsu Eclipse / Plymouth Laser

Originally Posted By: danl

flows extremely well (even if the honda guys don't want to believe it).

lol puke n die. great flow $;\)$

(Post Master Supreme)

04/16/07 01:32 AM

Re: Discuss: Eagle Talon / Mitsu Eclipse / Plymouth Laser

i've owned one, i will never again own one.
i had a 1G AWD TSi, and yeah, nickle and dime you to death!

i had no complaints about the reliability of them as far as starting up and running, but mine never ran right. there was nothing i could do to get it to pull like it was supposed to. it idled great, and ran great up until about 1500rpm below redline, where it would stutter and shutter and not want to make any more power. i thought it was the coil packs, so i replaced them, no go, thought it was the CAS so i replaced that, no go. i checked the ecu as they are prone to leaky diodes and shit, it was fine.

the JDM CYCLONE engines are fine if you get the 6 bolt engine, just swap over to the stock intake manifold since the cyclone manifold is a pile of shit and a pain in the ass to get to even work properly without many very hard to find parts that are generally not included with the swap.

i have no complaints about the size of the car interior or exterior wise, people told me i was going to be crawling in and out of it and feeling cramped, but i had no problems getting in or out and driving it was very comfortable. the seats were very nice, had lumbar support adjustment side bolster adjustment, tilt adjustment. really quite nice seats, especially compared to a civic. (i do not like the leather seats, i had a friend with leather seats and they suck ass.)

I wouldn't get a Laser, i don't think they came in awd even. fwd dsm's suck ass, if you're going to dive in to that money pit you might as well go head first and get the only ones worth buying AWD TSi.

they really are hit and miss, if you are going to buy one, see if you can take it for a day and definately get it on a hoist and have a look at the underside. check all the wheel bearings, the transfer cases, the diffs, the prop shaft, etc. etc. make sure that the turbo oil drain line is not stripped out of the oil pan, cause that's a bitch to fix since you have to take the downpipe off and the transmission half apart to get the oil pan off.

they realy are a pain in the ass to work on unless you have a lot of time and patience.

I Live In Canada

(Post Master Sr)

04/16/07 01:41 AM

Re: Discuss: Eagle Talon / Mitsu Eclipse / Plymouth Laser

Lasers came in awd. Find a good car and you wont have any real issues. A dsm isn't really a car you should just pick up drive for a bit and sell. They take a while to learn their little tricks but once you do their easy to work on, parts a plentiful, easy to make power on etc.

(Post Master Supreme)

04/16/07 09:05 AM

Re: Discuss: Eagle Talon / Mitsu Eclipse / Plymouth Laser

DSM really should stand for nickel & dime..

I lol'd when I saw that comment...as it holds so true....

(Post Master Sr)

04/16/07 12:31 PM

Re: Discuss: Eagle Talon / Mitsu Eclipse / Plymouth Laser

DSMs get a bad rep because of their owners. Turbobricks website has the same problem. People post about what a pile their turbo volvo is, and how it's unreliable, and they can't get power out of it reliably, when they purchased a 150k mile car, and didn't even change a fuel filter. Turbo brickers call it "stage zero", just replacing all the vaccuum hoses, lines, tune up, fluids, flushing systems, replacing sensors, basically, getting the car back to "like new" running condition before modding.

I've seen a lot of DSM guys buy the car with 100k or more miles, and just start modding, without bringing the car back to like new condition. I've also seen a lot of DSM owners that have done the basics on the car, made sure it was stout, and now have 400+ hp daily drivers.

kickass, fast, fun cars if you are willing to take care of it.

(Post Master Supreme)

04/16/07 12:41 PM

Re: Discuss: Eagle Talon / Mitsu Eclipse / Plymouth Laser

so, if it nickel and dimes you when you buy it or over time. makes no difference

(Post Master Sr)

04/16/07 12:54 PM

Re: Discuss: Eagle Talon / Mitsu Eclipse / Plymouth Laser

Originally Posted By: Euphoric

so, if it nickel and dimes you when you buy it or over time. makes no difference

pretty much, but by that sense, ANY car that's over ten years old will be the same nickel and dime situation. I just plan an extra $700 or so on top of purchase price, to get it going in the right direction. I've learned the hard way lol boom

(Jr Member)

04/16/07 01:02 PM

Re: Discuss: Eagle Talon / Mitsu Eclipse / Plymouth Laser

I've had 3 "DSM's"

- '96 AWD A/T - 120k miles - (RIP)
∙ 16g/exhaust/intake/ic piping/fuel pump/etc.
∙ zero rust.
∙ zero problems until I curbed it in the rain.

- '96 AWD A/T - 149k miles -
∙ 16g/exhaust/intake/ic piping/fuel pump/etc (swapped from previous car)
∙ small rust spot on inside of trunklid, damn chicago cars.
∙ crank pulley seperated at 120k (common)
∙ CPS died at 140k.
∙ Transmission finally died after 145k of hard driving.
∙ Still runs like a raped ape to this day.

- '98 GS-T A/T Spyder - 121k miles -
∙ FP Big T28/exhaust/o2 dump/intake/ic piping/etc.
∙ zero rust.
∙ zero problems.

Maybe it's the luck of the A/T, but all 3 were daily drivers, no downtime at all except for the tranny swap in #2.
After all, it's not a coincidence that Danl & I religiously believe in maintenance, and ours are very reliable.
It's just that simple.

Maintenance, maintenance, maintenance.
I like that Stage0.

(Jr Member)

04/16/07 04:17 PM

Re: Discuss: Eagle Talon / Mitsu Eclipse / Plymouth Laser

My dad bought a bright red Eclipse GSX (on my recommendation) new in 1992. He babied that car and drove it perhaps 10k miles a year, serviced it regularly, and kept it garaged. That didn't keep the turbo, and then the entire engine, from failing within five years.

I'm not saying that this is typical for all early DSMs, but his experience wasn't all that great.

On a related note, perhaps nothing is quite so sad as a stock Eclipse GSX with an automatic transmission.

(Post Master Supreme)

04/16/07 04:59 PM

Re: Discuss: Eagle Talon / Mitsu Eclipse / Plymouth Laser

Originally Posted By: 5.Slow

I've seen a lot of DSM guys buy the car with 100k or more miles, and just start modding, without bringing the car back to like new condition. I've also seen a lot of DSM owners that have done the basics on the car, made sure it was stout, and now have 400+ hp daily drivers.

kickass, fast, fun cars if you are willing to take care of it.

Yes, I'm a believer in keeping up on maintenance and OEM parts. I feel that two years ago my car was a good example of a stage 0 + bolt on car at low 12's at 126mph. Stock motor stock transmission daily driver. Last year it was more race focused and less street usage, no winter usage, still on a stock motor and tranny went 11.9 at 126. I opted for a shep transmission as part of preventive maintenance at this power level and settled out with mid 11's at 130mph. Fully street legal and only broke when a third gear burnout on the highway went wrong (sidestepped the clutch and lost an axle into the frame...oops).

Method1, honestly something sounds like it failed in your fathers car or saw a bad oil change. For instance who are you to say that a low quality oil filter didn't implode and cause what sounds like a major oiling issue (turbo failure and motor failure). I can't guesstimate on the failure but I can state fact. The early 4g63's are one of the strongest production motors to ever be produced. The turbo design has seen 200+K miles and no failures. Hell its used on high mileage delivery trucks with 16g's and 20g's that see tons of hours. Aside from the laughable mitsu "problems" if you broke a early 4g63 then you did something wrong. If nothing else I've taken a stock 160+K example to 130mph trap speeds which is who knows how many horsepower. Bust on anything you want but the motor is stout. It is after all the fastest production 4 cyl in the world at nearly 200mph.

(Post Master Supreme)

04/16/07 05:05 PM

Re: Discuss: Eagle Talon / Mitsu Eclipse / Plymouth Laser

Originally Posted By: Euphoric

Originally Posted By: danl

flows extremely well (even if the honda guys don't want to believe it).

lol puke n die. great flow $;\)$

I read your sarcasm (the puke and die was due to my stock cams BTW) but I will entertain it just so you can see my point more clearly. The stock puny 14b turbo has gone 126mph in a 1g motor no nitrous. At that point its not only puke and die but its nearly an all motor car up top. Its a horribly inefficient turbo at that power level and only the flow of the motor is keeping up the speed. Cars like mine were puke and die because I had a good sized turbo and the stock head/cams got really efficient at 4500rpm's then just fell off. Some mild touching up of the head and CAMS and boy oh boy you don't want to mess with a well set up car on the highway.

(Post Master Supreme)

04/16/07 05:16 PM

Re: Discuss: Eagle Talon / Mitsu Eclipse / Plymouth Laser

The motor probs have been so wide spread that I dont fully beleive in the preventative maintenance thing for these cars. Imo the quality control was a bit lacking and you just had some shitty luck and got a bad one, which ahppend many times.

as for the head. you needed to freshen it up with other parts. most heads will flow well after that $;\)$
stock honda head on the other hand... $\:D$

*relax, i know they can be fast*

(Post Master Supreme)

04/16/07 05:29 PM

Re: Discuss: Eagle Talon / Mitsu Eclipse / Plymouth Laser

Any and all DSM problems are documented well by the outstanding efforts of the DSM community. Their were no quality problems with the motors in the early years. The 2g's had a design problem that effected less than 1% of the cars after the warranty period. 10% of all problems with 2g's are blamed on crankwalk however. Dude my wipers don't work.........ahhh crankwalk my friend etc.... You know I've seen supras crankwalk, same with MR2's and even 350 small block chevys but we don't hear about that.

(Jr Member)

04/16/07 06:11 PM

Re: Discuss: Eagle Talon / Mitsu Eclipse / Plymouth Laser

Originally Posted By: danl

Method1, honestly something sounds like it failed in your fathers car or saw a bad oil change. For instance who are you to say that a low quality oil filter didn't implode and cause what sounds like a major oiling issue (turbo failure and motor failure).

Hey, anything's possible...and as I said in my initial post, I'm not holding up my father's experience as a wholesale indictment of all DSMs. But since it did happen, and it was out-of-the ordinary considering his driving habits, I figured it was worth mentioning.

CommonGutterTrash

(Post Master Sr)

04/16/07 06:20 PM

Re: Discuss: Eagle Talon / Mitsu Eclipse / Plymouth Laser

dan's not crazy; nor is he the only person to have success with the 4g-series of motors. they were far beyond their years in technology, and were built extremely well. the motors prior to 1995 were bullet-proof if properly maintained... they came with service schedules, which were pretty intense.
you're accepting a little more responsibility with an AWD, turbo 4-cylinder than you are with a civic, or even an under-powered 302.

if you can't handle a rigerous maintenance schedule... stick to simple cars...
the NA 4g63, 4g64, 4g61 last forever because they're under-powered... they are over-built, and have very few complex parts.

I had the 6-bolt from the Galant put together with all-mitsu parts, and removed the balance-shafts. drove it for 15k miles and the oil-filter backed off because I never lock-tite'd it. I re-filled it, and drove it another 20k miles before it started knocking.(drove = beating the PISS out of it) I popped the caps off, replaced the bearings and drive it another 40k before I sold it. the new buyer put on ~30k before he bottomed out, and snapped the oil filter clean off. which... finally killed the motor. almost took Effort.

(Post Master Supreme)

04/16/07 06:31 PM

Re: Discuss: Eagle Talon / Mitsu Eclipse / Plymouth Laser

were the n/a motors in 1g's 4g63's aswell?

my g/fs uncle went though like 4 of em.(all coverd under warranty) . Hes had zero major issues with other cars hes had since (incl jetta 1.8t and ep Si)and didnt have that kind of issue with previous cars(porsche 911 etc) .

the problems are too wide spread to blame it soley on the owners imho. that doesnt mean they arent built well or cant make power or cant be reliable. my bros has been perfectly fine other than other nickle and dime shit. nothing major has happend.

i just think youd be naive to be buying one those cars expecting it to run like a stock civic.

i almost picked one up myself at one point, but backed out due to the lack of parking space.

CommonGutterTrash

(Post Master Sr)

04/16/07 07:12 PM

Re: Discuss: Eagle Talon / Mitsu Eclipse / Plymouth Laser

they were, but they also had timing belts, balance shafts, and hydrolic tensioners.
Even if you only put 14 miles on it, the belt needs replacing every 2 years.
It's not like this frikken saab; 6 years and 180k miles. original chain.

but, again...

(Post Master Supreme)

04/16/07 08:29 PM

Re: Discuss: Eagle Talon / Mitsu Eclipse / Plymouth Laser

My friend hit a chunk of ice in his eclipse pushing the oil pan into the pickup. He drove it to work then on the way home it started knocking. He then drove back to work meaning to pull the pan, got busy drove home. Drove back to work the next day and got time to finally pull the pan and rod caps. All 4 rods made contact but kinda didn't really spin in that they didn't break the tabs of. He replaced the bearings buttoned it up and drove it home. Drove it for 60 miles then did an oil change. All looked ok. Since then he's been driving it for a few months even made the trip down the mountain to vis it me.

He also lost the dipstick to his talon. When the oil pressure light would flicker he knew to add 1 quart and that car was ABUSED. Here is a video of his (literally) $600 in mod money car. Its a 16g with a stick welded exhaust stock fuel system pump gas 160K daily driver. *right click save as*

http://www.its-over.net/humls_brothers_talon.mov

EDIT:

In case your wondering yes he's flat shifting a high mileage daily driver.

(Jr Member)

04/17/07 12:36 PM

Re: Discuss: Eagle Talon / Mitsu Eclipse / Plymouth Laser

Originally Posted By: method1

On a related note, perhaps nothing is quite so sad as a stock Eclipse GSX with an automatic transmission.

Stock yea, I know that well $\:\($
But there's nothin like a 15-20psi AWD launch, I miss that :|
...
Time to AWD swap on the Spyder $\:D$

(Post Master Supreme)

04/17/07 09:39 PM

Re: Discuss: Eagle Talon / Mitsu Eclipse / Plymouth Laser

Originally Posted By: w1kk3d

Originally Posted By: method1

On a related note, perhaps nothing is quite so sad as a stock Eclipse GSX with an automatic transmission.

Stock yea, I know that well $\:\($
But there's nothin like a 15-20psi AWD launch, I miss that :|
...
Time to AWD swap on the Spyder $\:D$

Let their be faith in the auto!!!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0mBg_A-KTlo

(Sr Member)

04/22/07 04:59 PM

Re: Discuss: Eagle Talon / Mitsu Eclipse / Plymouth Laser

My experience?

'95 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX:
3" Turbo-back
MBC set to 16lbs
ACT 2600pp and organic street disc
K&N filter

I drove the piss out of this car nonstop and it never gave me any problems, I picked it up with 110k and sold it with 146k, the only guff I ever got from it was a roasted stock clucth, and then a broken clutch fork after I added the ACT (my own fault, I should have replaced it when I did the clutch). That car (though slow) was a really fun car to drive around, I could beat the HELL out of it and it never had any problems. I simply did the typical maint. and frequent oil changes and no problems.

'94 Eagle Talon TSi AWD:
Bought the car with 131k on the clock and it was stock sans some ricer stickers and painted trim. The previous owner beat the shit out of it and the tranny was going out on her when I purchased it. Since then I gave it a host of bolt-ons and eventually pulled out the 1G 7-bolt to make way for a 6-bolt stroker. Only problem I ever had with that car was that I fed it a towel while it was running (caught in the cam gears), all I had to do to fix that was to perform a timing belt job.

'92 Eagle Talon TSi AWD:
Just bought it, gonna do a stock rebuild on it and daily drive it.

For me the DSM experience depends on a lot of things, the cars are downright old, and they were turbocharged, awd, tuner cars from a time when that stuff basically didn't exist! Naturally since they have depreciated the cars have been handed down from one person to the next and now kids all over own them, own them and beat the ever living crap out of them! You have to really know what to look for when purchasing one but there are plenty of gems out there, and you can pick up a motor (longblock) from the junkyard for $125, have it rebuilt for CHEAP and you're back in business.

(Jr Poster)

07/27/17 02:52 AM

Re: Discuss: Eagle Talon / Mitsu Eclipse / Plymouth Laser

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