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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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07/20/12 02:04 PM
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So, I'm finally building an engine... *new dyno # 2/7/2014*
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Put some money down with the local shop that's been working on my car for years. They seem to do a pretty clean job, so I expect the motor to come out great as well. I was originally planning an LS1 swap, but circumstances did not work out, so I'll be doing something else. I'll post more about it, once the parts start to arrive. I'm thinking that realistically the motor should be done and in the car by September.
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FCobra94
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(Post Master Supreme)
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07/20/12 02:25 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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07/20/12 02:31 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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As someone on Corral said, I have a fully built car around a stock engine. Time to change that.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Nice its about time. You'll be able to move those pluses in your sig to the right.
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hustler
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(Post Master Sr)
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07/20/12 03:33 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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yeah watch out you will want a big windsor soon  you should check out this american iron video of paul brown with a n/a 5.7 ex cup motor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Yy8PHXbgMI&feature=related
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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07/20/12 03:39 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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I'll probably be buying my hood from Tiger Racing to keep everything cool. Also have to step up to bigger lines on the oil cooler.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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347? 331? 408? 470? C'mon...don't be a bitch and just tease. Put out man! I want details or you're useless to me!
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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07/20/12 04:22 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Eagle 331 internally balanced rotating assembly, AFR 185 heads, either Comp or custom cam.
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hustler
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(Post Master Sr)
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07/20/12 05:21 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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That will be a healthy motor and the 185's are a good match for a naturally aspirated 331. a 205 or a 210 edel vic jr head would have been a good match too, that thing will make power. What intake are you going to use? Don't say stock either stock intake manifold is a cork. I finally gave in and upgraded to a 96 exploder intake after i grabbed some gt40 heads. For your motor I would look at an Edel Performer RPM 2 intake. That is a great midrange rpm intake and would make the most usable power throughout the powerband on that n/a 331. I had a systemax intake which was similar to the vortech/saleen intake and i just felt like the runners were so big that the velocity suffered with my stock 302 and the e7 heads which were so small. My HP went up by 40+ with the e303 cam but torque dropped considerably and felt like a dud off the line. it definitely ran better with the blower, but the e7 heads and my 19lb injectors with FMU still held me back to 340whp @ 10psi. Not very impressive. would guess you will need 36lb injectors for your new setup. 24lb'ers might just be a tad small.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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07/20/12 06:17 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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I'm going to reuse my Edelbrock performer that I have installed a while ago. It's been ported to use 75mm throttle body, so should be just fine for this application. I'd like to see 350whp or so, but who knows how much I'll really get.
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Impulsive
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(Post Master Supreme)
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07/20/12 08:42 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Awesome. Glad you're doing it right.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Sounds like a nice combo, this is a car built to turn rather than all out drag racer right?
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GB
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(Post Master Supreme)
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07/21/12 01:33 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Sounds like a nice combo, this is a car built to turn rather than all out drag racer right?
This car is pretty much solely built for road courses..
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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I'd like to see 350whp or so, but who knows how much I'll really get.
If still going to street this car frequently and for fairly common commuting, then 185's are perfect. If heading to the track (either) more so than to the kwik-e-mart, then I'd probably opt for 205's and a cam in the 234-238 range.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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07/22/12 09:39 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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It's still going to be the daily driver for just a little bit longer, not to mention that I'd like to keep the appearance of smog legality with CARB numbers on heads and intake and headers (I'm going with shorty headers. As for the cam, I was thinking of going with Comp Cams XE282HR. I may also go with custom, but that will be decided later.
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hustler
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(Post Master Sr)
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07/23/12 12:04 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Would recommend staying with shortys. I had to switch from Kooks to BBK longtubes after I put head studs on the stock block. Getting them in was no fun job because you have to lift the motor up very high. So basically to get the trans out I had to take off the passenger side header by unbolting mounts, raising it, then had to lower it back and bolt the mounts again so i could pull the bellhousing/trans out. Pain in the ass. I don't like unbolting the driveshaft when pulling the trans either so I wiggle it out at an angle making it a little harder before I pull it off the yoke on the ground. Anyway I would steer away from longtubes. Don't think they are worth the hassle unless you are making over 500whp.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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As for the cam, I was thinking of going with Comp Cams XE282HR.[/quote] That cam will make the number...easily. Might be a little wild for the street with those cubes, but will command attention any cruise spot you pull into. NICE.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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08/04/12 08:03 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Well, some of the parts came in already. Here is the lot of parts that came in so far
For bottom end I went with Eagle 331 internally balanced rotating assembly. I really wanted to do an internally balanced engine, so it could be more rev happy. I'm probably not going to rev it too far, since this is a street engine using hydraulic roller cam. Probably going for a 6500 rpm redline. Everything is forged, including the Mahle pistons and H-beam rods.
Top end parts so far are Comp 1.6 roller rockers and hardened pushrods
And since factory engine is a 50oz externally balanced, I can't reuse stock flywheel or balancer. So I ordered one of ACT ProLite flywheel. What's cool about this piece is that most of the material has been removed from outside of the flywheel, in effort to keep the rotating mass down. And it's also one piece, which means that it will be as reliable as stock flywheel.
Other stuff that's not in pictures are just gaskets, and Ford Racing high volume oil pump. Stay tuned for more.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Though you purchased a balanced kit, make sure you go ahead and have it balanced by the machine shop. You'd be surprised how many people buy balanced kits and they turn out not to be terribly balanced. I forget how many grams my "internally balanced" kit was off...but it was very worth my while to pay the extra 175 to get it done and know it was dead nuts on...and now it revs so smoothly...very impressed with the results.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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08/05/12 05:02 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Oh yeah, absolutely. The kit is gonna be balanced. We are still waiting on harmonic balancer to arrive. Once its here, everything is going to machine shop
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hustler
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(Post Master Sr)
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08/13/12 01:06 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Love watching a new build happen just got back from vacation, so will keep checking your progress.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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08/24/12 01:11 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Car hit 240k miles today on the way back from work. I gotta say, this is the hardest working engine I've ever seen. Also a bit of an update, rotating assembly went off to get balanced. I've also ordered a solid steering shaft and some new headlights
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hustler
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(Post Master Sr)
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08/24/12 10:51 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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These engines can go a long time when taken care of no doubt about it.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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08/24/12 02:56 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Ok, so here is the tentative timeline. The motor should be fully assembled by end of second week of September. At that point I will give my car to the shop, and they will begin work on installing the motor, and everything else that's supposed to happen. I should get the car back after a couple of weeks of work, tuning, road testing, and working out all the small kinks.
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GB
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(Post Master Supreme)
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08/25/12 06:05 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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So, car back to you, finished by second week of october? Ish?
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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08/25/12 04:34 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Yeah, most likely. Maybe sooner. There is another autoX in October, it would be nice to give the car it's first shake down.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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09/06/12 09:59 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Few more parts. Say hello to:
Machined block with filed rings
Shorty Headers
In Tank Fuel Pump
Camshaft
Harmonic Balancer
Oil Pan
Roller Lifters (a little blurry)
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Looking good man. I'm jealous!
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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09/10/12 01:39 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Another small update. Just put the car on a local scale. With fuel tank being filled to the top the car is 3420 lbs with 57/43 distribution. I'm going to measure it again after the engine work is complete
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hustler
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(Post Master Sr)
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09/10/12 11:02 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Some nice additions The Innovators West is a nice piece.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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09/10/12 03:55 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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I've tried to do best of parts where I could. I understand that ATI is actually the best balancer on the market, however they don't have one for 94-95. They had one in development, but it would not be ready for another couple of months. I went with second best, which is Innovators West.
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hustler
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(Post Master Sr)
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09/10/12 04:20 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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An ATI came with the race shortblock I had, very nice unit, I ended up using my motorsport piece since it had more material and figured it would hold up better with the large blower crank pulley after I had it double keyed. It had a removable counterweight as well. Romac's are good as well I'm told. Funny part is i was looking for something cheap to go back on my stock shortblock so I bought an ebay special old stock Lunati unit for around 80 dollars. Seems to be working so far
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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09/16/12 11:36 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Stage 8 bolts for headers.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Awesome man, it ll be like driving a new car . Vids to follow of course
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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09/16/12 05:33 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Yeah, actually thinking of asking our digital department at work to do a small clip of the car. I work for a small studio as a sql developer
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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I've never been a big fan of the locking fastners for the headers. I use the red-loctite for best results.
Sure, the bolt diameter is too small for loctite to work it's best, but it's still pretty effective. It's just that the locking fasters tend to have too large a head, so it can be hard to effectively get a socket on there for torquing the shit out of it. Sure, those have the allen wrench fitting, but again, can't get too much torque through that either...
What will you use for gaskets? soft aluminum or copper? Straight RTV? Composite? Mix of all?
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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09/16/12 08:38 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Cometic MLS for head gasket. OEM for everything else. I've got a set of copper header gaskets that I've had for years, maybe I'll use those. I'll talk to the engine builder. I'm using stage 8 stuff because I've heard that BBK headers tend to loosen the bolts up. I really don't like how stiff the e clip is on those.
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hustler
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(Post Master Sr)
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09/17/12 02:12 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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yeah headers can be a pain in the ass, I use a combination of 12 point and allen head bolts with an allen wrench I had cutoff so it would fit around the short turn tubes. Made life a lot easier. I ran copper head gaskets on my old motor and they held up fine with running a small batch of alumaseal into the coolant. After I blew the original head gaskets on my original semi stock longblock while tuning with too much timing likely, I went to MLS and so far it has held. Personally i liked the idea of the composite gasket acting as a fuse for detonation, but a buddy who went through multiple composites talked me into the MLS along with studs. Probably more imperative on a blown application with the studs to prevent the heads from lifting under boost, but the MLS will work well especially since you are assembling with freshly cut heads and deck giving you the surface finish required for MLS gaskets. I just scraped the deck with razor blades and it seems to be holding up.
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beerslurpy
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(Post Master Supreme)
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09/23/12 10:28 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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If you don't mind me asking, why no forced induction? I ask because I'm thinking my next project car should be powered by a turbocharged 302.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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09/23/12 11:03 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Less heat, less weight, less parts to break, and I don't like turbo cars.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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09/25/12 12:28 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Droppped the car off at the shop. No turning back now
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hustler
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(Post Master Sr)
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09/25/12 07:08 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Awesome, it will be a different car when you get it back.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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09/25/12 07:34 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Yesterday I couldn't really sleep. I kept tossing and turning, pondering if I have ruined my car, what if the cam was too big, what if it will get on my nerves by being too much to deal with in traffic. Don't forget, I've ruined a car before with bad engine work on a small budget. This time things are a little different. I'm having a shop do this, which is immaculate with their work, fit and finish. I've spent a very significant amount on parts. All I have to do now is wait. I'm still hoping to see at least 350whp
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Yesterday I couldn't really sleep. I kept tossing and turning, pondering if I have ruined my car, what if the cam was too big, what if it will get on my nerves by being too much to deal with in traffic.
-it'll start good.
-it'll run good
-extra cubic inches (heck, even stock cubed), you'll have more than enough low-end for satisfying driving.
-fuel injection will help it run pretty well at low rpm's, even *if* the cam is "too big".
It's not like you're running an AFR 225 headed 302 with a 250 @ .050 cam with narrow 106 LSA, big headers, and an auto transmission.
Say you're cam is "too big" though...swapping 'em isn't the end of the world; or you could use it as an excuse to up the gears (though, not a huge fan of that, since THAT is what makes a car seem less streetable to me). With the deep OD of your car though, hwy cruising would still be fine, and city driving may become easier with shorter gears.
But, it appears to me that this is a good balanced engine that will sacrifice a little low-end that the extra cubes will help considerably (so loss of low-end should really be minimal), that will have a very strong mid/upper ranges and pull much longer than you can imagine...
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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awesome, I've been talking about building a 351w based replacement for my 93 but am no further along than I was ~10 years ago. lol.
still have a '69 K code 351w block though, and stock internals that need to be thrown out
good luck with the build OP
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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I'm using stage 8 stuff because I've heard that BBK headers tend to loosen the bolts up. I really don't like how stiff the e clip is on those.
May I suggest a set of these for your header bolts?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgwmuZuJ02I
I use them on my intake bolts, exhaust studs, flywheel bolts..... Essentially everything I never want to come undone and they work awesome; I put them on ANYTHING that I don't want to come loose and have replaced almost every lockwasher on the car with them.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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09/28/12 07:19 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Looks like an interesting system. Where does one purchase something like that?
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hustler
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(Post Master Sr)
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10/01/12 11:39 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Hows the progress going?
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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10/01/12 12:24 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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The shop is starting on it today. ET completion is two weeks. Meanwhile I'm driving shop loaner, which is an all manual yellow Focus... with hood pins.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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They're badass, I talked to their motorsports guy and he said
1. Safe to use on my flywheel bolts.
2. He'd pay for any damage if said flywheel bolts backed out while using their nordlocks.
Where to purchase? Got me brother I special ordered them through the local fastenal store, it took about a week but they all showed. Zinc plated steel for the flywheel and some sort of stainless for the intake/exhaust/anywhere people could see. Simply replace whatever lockwasher was going to be on there with these, torque em down and forget it.
Seriously, these things are badass.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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10/08/12 06:20 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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More pictures with more stuff.
Here is the old engine. Goodbye old friend, you've served me well.
Now, something seems to be missing here. Where did I put this thing?
Oh yeah, here it is
Close up shot of the valve train.
As of right now, the build is slightly behind schedule. The plan is to have the motor in the car on friday, and finally fire it up monday. Tuned and delivered should be end of next week.
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madmatt
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(Post Master Supreme)
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10/08/12 06:36 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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 yesssss
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Can't wait for this to be ready!
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Impulsive
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(Post Master Supreme)
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10/09/12 09:31 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Same here. While I'm hardly a big Mustang/Modding guy anymore, I'd still love to do a Mustang build. I was hoping to get a 3 car garage to have a project, but no such luck.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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To me it's strikes me as terrific that the chassis of this particular car has been so thoroughly gone through and modified to the owner's personal taste; in many respects, it almost seemed as if the engine was the lagging feature, if anything, on this car...odd given that when new, it was certainly one of the most important, if not the key feature of this era mustang.
That it will hit the road with such a well-thought out engine, high performance yet tractable, will in my mind make it like a new car to the owner almost...it's amazing what a thoroughly revamped engine can do for a vehicle, especially when so far from stock.
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hustler
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(Post Master Sr)
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10/19/12 11:25 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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car done yet?
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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10/19/12 11:48 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Nope. Gonna call the shop today to see where they are at. Last I've checked, they broke heater core trying to pull the hose off it, and the Innovators West balancer did not line up with the other accessories.
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madmatt
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(Post Master Supreme)
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10/19/12 11:54 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Make THEM replace that heater core, for the love of God do not assume its an easy task...
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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10/19/12 03:54 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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I've changed it myself about two years back. Took me 11 hours by myself, but I was also changing the AC condenser at the same time. I remember how much fun it was. Yeah, they are going to replace it.
Bit of an update. They finished cleaning the engine bay, so the motor should be in the car this by the end of the day. From there on they will cut 1 inch from exhaust, because engine is set back an inch, move the battery in the trunk, replace fuel pump, install gauges and dimmer switch, install larger fan, move the overflow bottle to the side where the battery used to be, clean the whole mess up, and give it a small tune to make it driveable. Then I will drive it for couple of weeks breaking it in, and give it back for a tune.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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10/19/12 09:39 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Couple of more images.
Clean engine bay
Fully dressed engine.
The images are small, they were taken by someone else.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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10/24/12 06:16 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Motor is in the car, and set back an inch as off this morning. Probably will get the car back next week, or so I hope. Then break in period, and give it back for tune.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Awesome
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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10/29/12 06:52 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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They almost fired it up friday, but some other stuff got in the way. A lot of custom work being done while the car is there.
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madmatt
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(Post Master Supreme)
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10/30/12 09:38 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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 $$$ custom
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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10/30/12 11:43 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Car was fired up last night, but did not idle. The shop owner is going to throw a chip in it today, give it a slight tune, check the timing and such, and see how it goes.
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Impulsive
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(Post Master Supreme)
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10/30/12 02:55 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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I'm getting anxious for some vids. three three juan
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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10/30/12 11:11 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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I'm getting anxious just to have my damn car back.
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OnyxEros
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(Post Master Supreme)
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10/31/12 08:03 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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I wish you the best of luck and I want it to turn out to be awesome but i personally trust most guys to take as much care assembling as I would/have
I do hope your builder is taking care of you and treating you right and you get a kick ass motor back
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hustler
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(Post Master Sr)
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11/06/12 10:25 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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where we at this week?
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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11/06/12 01:08 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Everything is buttoned up, and it has been fired up, but it keeps cutting out almost immediately after firing up. TPS readings are all out of whack. They are working on it still. I've looked into this issue on my own, and looks like a bad ground.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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11/09/12 07:18 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Just talked to the engine builder. He said that the car is ready for break in, but still has a few small bugs here and there. He also said that acceleration feels like nothing is holding it back, feels very stout. I told him to just finish the car, break it in himself, tune it, and give it back to me when it's ready. He's got two weeks.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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very nice.
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GB
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(Post Master Supreme)
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11/11/12 12:27 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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This thread gives me anxiety! I just wanna see you with your car back and happy!
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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11/20/12 01:19 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Supposed to get the car back tomorrow, dynoed, ready to go. Will still have to do break in for another 500 miles after I'd think.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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....aaaaaand they dyno results are?
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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11/20/12 09:06 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Tomorrow. It's getting dynoed tomorrow. So tomorrow either one of the following things will happen.
1. I will come on here posting happy about how the car made more power than expected
2. I will come on here posting in whatever mood if the car dynoed 350whp on the dot.
3. I will be convicted of murder in 2nd degree because the car made 290whp!!!
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Today's the big day, I'm giddy with excitement. lol Just kidding but good luck bud.
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kyden
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(Post Master Supreme)
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11/21/12 07:20 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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i don't believe in engine break-ins, but only my opinion though.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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3. I will be convicted of murder in 2nd degree because the car made 290whp!!!
I'd be pretty happy w/ 350whp. Looking over your combo the *only* things that *might* hold you back would be the head/header combo. But the heads really seem like good flowing units, the headers aren't THAT important (I mean, Long tubes may make another 15hp or so), so I'd be fairly confident you'll hit that number at least...
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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11/21/12 02:49 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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I'd be pretty happy w/ 350whp. Looking over your combo the *only* things that *might* hold you back would be the head/header combo. But the heads really seem like good flowing units, the headers aren't THAT important (I mean, Long tubes may make another 15hp or so), so I'd be fairly confident you'll hit that number at least...
290whp is only 70 more than what I dynoed last. And considering how much I've spent, that would be a joke. I told the builder that I wanna see 350whp at the very least.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Suspense... Killing... Me...
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LNXGUY
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(Post Master Supreme)
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11/21/12 06:41 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Has the OP killed himself after seeing the dyno numbers?
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Impulsive
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(Post Master Supreme)
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11/21/12 09:36 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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NUMBERS.
This thread is for all of us who had/wanted a Mustang and failed to build anything worthwhile.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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11/21/12 11:01 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Ok, so the car is tuned for break in, and with safe tune it makes 308whp. Timing is still low (27 degrees) and we are reaching the limit of MAF voltage. I'm going to break it in for two weeks, and then return it to button up all the stuff, give it a final tune, and get the car back perfect.
First impressions. The motor is a LOT more responsive. Responds to throttle a lot quicker than I'm used to. Cam idle is actually pretty good, does not shake the car like expected. Acceleration at partial throttle is very smooth and super easy. I gotta keep an eye on speedo to make sure I'm not going faster than I should be.
Some issues. Car does not like to cruise below 1500 rpm, bucks around a lot. I don't know if that's the tuning issue, or something else, or maybe the cam itself, but that's something I can live with. At wide open throttle timing changes, and the car jumps around a lot, that's something that needs to be sorted out.
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LNXGUY
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(Post Master Supreme)
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11/22/12 07:07 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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I think denmah needs to tune this car.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Good job on not pussing out on the cam. I got talked into a smallish cam for the Neon the first time around (.374" lift). The second cam had .433" lift and a lot more duration. It was a lot better. Felt like 30 more Ache Pees on the top end.
308 to the wheels isn't bad at all, hopefully you have a little more in it too.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Yeah that's a good result , and 300whp in anything in the 3000lb range still moves good!
Break it in and post up!!
The chugging at 1500 probably is the tune , just was tuned around there to be safe so when the motors lugging it don t go boom I'm sure
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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308 @ only 27 degrees timing is actually pretty dang good. You'll probably end up at 34 degrees and, along with other tuning changes, hit your target at a minimum.
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Impulsive
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(Post Master Supreme)
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11/22/12 11:15 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Dynojet?
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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11/22/12 01:09 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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308 @ only 27 degrees timing is actually pretty dang good. You'll probably end up at 34 degrees and, along with other tuning changes, hit your target at a minimum.
That's what I'm hoping for, because the tuner made it sound like that's it and we are not going to make more. I was really pissed off. Then he explained a few things, I came down slightly. I may have to go to a different shop that will tune the car properly.
Yes, dynojet.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Well, 27 degrees is AWFULLY low with a cam like yours...and a fresh engine is usually "tight"; Most every engine I've done, I always end up adjusting the idle speed down as the engine breaks in. That could be robbing you of quite a bit of power right there...
Likewise, dyno's are just that....tuning tools. Different dyno's give different results, sometimes the difference is substantial.
I once helped someone put together an engine, and he used one of my recipes. He wanted an engine that made ~400-450hp,and not WHEEL Hp, just Hp. From a small block that had power brakes and an automatic trans, 4 speed auto @ 3.42 gears, in fact, I put together what I thought would safely give him the number he sought while still making MORE than enough vacuum to work with the power brakes AND be able to more or less idle down the hwy at 60mph at only 1800 rpms...WITH a carb. That's not the easiest thing in the world to do.
Put together a 9.5:1 383 SBC w/ AFR 205's, lunati voodoo cam (230/238, 110 LSA), eddy performer rpm, eddy 750 carb, long tubes, good ignition, etc.
Car was more than stout, did everything he needed...and he seemed really happy with it. Till he dyno'd it...only getting 306whp with them not pulling it past 5500 because of a problem they were having.
First, pointing out that had they wrung it out, yes...they'd had made a good bit more power. But then it was like, Hey, the car feels like everything you wanted...and does it too. Doesn't mind low-rpm jaunts on the hwy or cruising, gets good mileage on the long cruises/tours he likes to do, and beats MOST cars he encounters. It's like, why care about a number?
27 degree's just seems soooo low...even if it likes 32 degrees max, it should still jump quite a bit in power.
Now, if after a while, final tuning etc you're curious, or it doesn't take too many more degrees advance...do a compression test. That thing might have cylinder pressure through the roof, in which case the cam might be installed w/ too much advance, OR, you might want to get a bigger cam and a tighter LSA...
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denham
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(Post Master Supreme)
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11/24/12 02:26 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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i don't believe in engine break-ins, but only my opinion though.
wewt
also what are you guys using to tune SCT?
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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11/24/12 12:23 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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He insisted on using Moates.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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11/26/12 10:03 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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So I threw the car on the scale. It tipped it at 3380 lbs, meaning that I've lost about 40 lbs. Not a whole lot, but considering that almost everything in the motor was bigger and beefier, I'm not surprised one bit. One thing that did surprise me was the front to rear weight distribution. Car went from 57/43 to 54/46. That's 3 percent better. I'm pretty impressed.
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LNXGUY
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(Post Master Supreme)
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11/27/12 08:48 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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So when is denmah flying out to tune this bitch?
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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11/27/12 10:51 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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No idea. He's welcome any time though. Really need to focus on driveability of this car damn it. Driving in traffic is a bit of a handful, since tune has some missing stuff in it.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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11/28/12 05:13 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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I've made a decision to switch shops for tuning. Taking it to a different shop tomorrow after work to find out what it needs to get a good tune on there, and finish all the work.
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denham
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(Post Master Supreme)
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11/30/12 07:14 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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good luck! ive done a handful of turbo fords with ms2 plug and play.
im curious to see how you do, 300 is good start for sure
we have build a few explorer motors with a small cam and made high 2s with all stock junk
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hustler
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(Post Master Sr)
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11/30/12 11:36 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Sounds like you made a good decision, with how long it was taking them to figure things out, it seems over their head and you need more expertise. There is more power to be had especially since it sounds like its still missing and hesitating with road driving. AFR is probably all over the place. What is the compression and injector size on this motor I can't remember.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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11/30/12 12:08 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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10.5:1 compression, and 36 lbs. injectors.
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hustler
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(Post Master Sr)
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11/30/12 01:49 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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What was the A/F like on the dyno?
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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11/30/12 02:00 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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I have no idea. He didn't have the print out at the time. I'm sure he didn't tune the low end on the dyno.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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12/08/12 04:50 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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I can has daily. Bought a 2005 TSX today. Good to know that I won't be bothered by how ridiculous the mustang is on daily drive. Car is getting done little by little, should have it back end of next week.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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That's good, will lower your stress level...
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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12/10/12 12:07 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Picture of the car btw.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Good kill, those are nice cars IMO
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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12/24/12 04:42 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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So, no news on the mustang yet. I've moved it to a different shop, they found a few vacuum leaks, realigned the rockers, replaced distributor, and the car is waiting for a tune right now. Their laptop broke, so they have a queue of cars waiting for tune.
Meanwhile, I couldn't help myself, and got a small lip spoiler for the TSX. It was 45 dollars painted and shipped, I couldn't resist.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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01/03/13 05:17 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Well, bit of an update on the engine. So, I got the car back from the shop probably last Friday. There were some idle issues, which were not present at the dyno time, so they corrected everything for free by looking over the tune, and adding grounds next day. The car made 326whp at 5200rpm, after which the power would drop off. Torque was around 334whp mark as well. Timing is still at 29 degrees, we can’t really go much further without a risk of detonation at the track, since we are blessed with shitty 91 octane in SoCal.
Impressions: Power is good. I’ve essentially gained 120whp over what the car used to make before. The new shop made the car idle a LOT better than it used to be, drivability has increased tenfold, and power deliver is very smooth. Engine is pretty smooth as well, throughout the range of revs. Before at anything over 4k, it felt like it was going to disintegrate, but now it’s so silky, I can’t tell where I am without looking at the tach. I’ve taken the car out for a “spirited run”, with a few of my friends who have M3s and M5s. I was able to break off E39 M5 with ease, same goes for E46 M3s. Temperatures were very stable, and I was in the higher range of the revs pretty much the entire time. Brakes were affected in the negative way. Not enough vacuum, so I’m looking to HydraBoost conversion from a 96-04 Mustang.
Chasing power: The setup is not completely optimized. There is still power here and there I can pick up, but once again, it will cost me. My Edelbrock Performer 5.0 intake manifold has a range of idle to 5,500, which is why I’m dropping power at 5300 and on. It’s been ported, but only to accept a 75mm throttle body. The rest of it is still stock. I’m thinking about going to an intake manifold that supports higher rpm range to get to the rest of that power, most likely TrickFlow Track Heat. Cam is good for it, so are the heads, and so is everything else. There is still more power in timing, but we can’t go there safely without mixing gas. This could be an option in future as a flip switch tune, and I’ll just take like 12 gallons of 100 to the track with me. Another thing I should have probably added was an ignition box. Anyway, for now I’m pretty happy. Trying to make it to Buttonwillow in 4 weeks, need brakes to be finished by then.
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OnyxEros
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(Post Master Supreme)
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01/03/13 06:10 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Glad you got it back and it's running well
maybe run it like it is for a season (with hydraboost)and see if you can pick up the performance parts you need on the used market at the end of the racing season for cheap 
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Glad to hear you're making progress!
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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with the necessary changes (proper intake, ignition, timing), sounds like 350whp would be a cinch.
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Impulsive
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(Post Master Supreme)
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01/04/13 10:47 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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I'm not sure why tuning this seems to be such an issue. I would have figured Mustang tuning would be very simple.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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01/04/13 11:25 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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It's not really the tuning that's an issue. It's the crap gas that we have in California. The car is actually tuned really well for as much timing as it has.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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When are you going to change your sig to reflect a new acceleration ratings? This I've been waiting for...
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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01/04/13 11:53 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Thanks, completely forgot about that one.  Bumped the handling too, since the front end is lighter, and bites harder.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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01/17/13 06:08 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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So, I decided to have the car converted to Hydraboost to compensate for low vacuum from the new cam. I've had my friend's shop get hydraboost unit from a wrecked 1999 GT, and gave him the car last night. Hopefully will get the car soon, and everything is going to be groovy. I'm really looking forward to seeing how the brakes will work, especially since I never really felt like I was fully utilizing the Brembo kit that was on there. At high speed, it always felt like there is supposed to be more in there.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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huh thats about ~9 hp more than my 302 made with TFS heads an intake and a cam through a Tr-3550
maybe a different dyno callib tho, seems about right tho based on track performance (11.9s @ 114-ish for 3050# raceweight)
and a little less TQ
super old dyno if anybody cares. For a streetable AFR-185 headed 331, I'd hope for 400 rwhp personally. perhaps it's in the tune/installation/a mechanical issue
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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01/18/13 04:32 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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How much timing were you putting into it?
I'm still fairly low on timing, and that's partially because for a road race engine, it would have to operate for a lot longer intervals than a car setup for street or drag racing. My timing is still at 29 degrees, and my intake manifold is kind of a restriction, since I peak super early. I'm going to guess that there is still some power to be picked up. I'm going to go with TFS R intake manifold (2200-7200 rpm range), and possibly tune it on E85. I haven't decided if I want to do that yet, since there are only a handful of those gas stations around here.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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or your talking about total timing? I'm out of the scene for a while, the EEC-IV puts in (n) and I put in if you look at the top right of the chart there up to 17BTDC
I'm guessing thats like ~32-34 total timing but my brain no longer remembers the total timing the EEC-4 puts in (assuming ideal temps)
but hey man power is power, don't settle for 302 performance in that thing, jmho
I had full exhaust, and the only accessories being spun were the alt, waterpump, probably everything else was bypassed AND a pretty aggressive tiny ass crank pully, so considerable 'cheating' going on
something is really, really wrong though. You're down like ~80 HP imo
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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01/18/13 05:40 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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I think I can find another 25 in intake manifold, and cats (yeah, I still have those). I have BBK shorties, but I don't want to go full length, so that's not going to change. I still have ALL accessories on the belt, and between 29 and 34 degrees of timing, there is a lot of power to be gained.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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theres a 'matching' component to everything involved so careful, esp with the cam. the intake, heads, cam all have to be tuned for the same rpm window, hopefully the TFS-R intake (is that what you're going to?) doesn't actually hurt. it might. I seem to remember the old edelbrock intake being like a wunderkind intake for a baseline, see if you can find a buddy that has one, takes all of like an hour to swap
rice maths:
cats = -5
no underdrive pulley = -8
timing = -10 (??)
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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01/18/13 06:43 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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I've talked to a few shops, and they say that I'm actually right where I should be or so. Here is the dyno graph. I'm a bit concerned with the power dropping off at 5300, where it should be pulling strong to 6500. I've made a thread on Corral, where everyone proceeded to narrow it down to either valvetrain issue or/and intake manifold being too small. I've mentioned that I do have the proper valve springs, so it's highly unlikely that I'm getting valve float, especially at such low rpm. According to dyno, there is vacuum starting to form around 4k rpm, so there is definitely room to improve on the intake manifold. It is good from idle to 5500 on a stock engine. It has been ported, but only to accept a 75mm throttle body. I think I could gain something from the intake manifold swap.
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FCobra94
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(Post Master Supreme)
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01/22/13 09:08 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Why did you choose to skip the long tubes? Aren't they good for another ~25whp or so? Would going long tubes -> x pipe -> hi flow cats be a big issue? (I'm assuming it won't be cheap though)
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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01/22/13 10:56 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Already have X-pipe and high flow cats (soon to be replaced by resonators). I've always heard that there isn't that much hp difference between the two, it was just the torque.
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Impulsive
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(Post Master Supreme)
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01/22/13 11:42 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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I've heard the same - similar HP, much better torque on the long tubes.
The Performer RPM usually seemed to do the best in a lot of mag tests, but on a 331 - perhaps a bit bigger is better. I'm not sure what's out there anymore though.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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01/22/13 12:21 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Performer RPM is a good bit better than what I've got right now on the car. It gives you an additional 1k rpm of top end, while giving it up on the bottom. I will say though, I think I'm going to try TFS R-Series. It's been recommended by a lot of people.
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Impulsive
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(Post Master Supreme)
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01/22/13 02:30 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Here's a shootout I googled on 347's. They look to be about the same numbers wise and well matched to a 331 I'd think. Plus, you can always sell your current intake to recover much of the cost.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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01/22/13 03:41 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Here's a shootout I googled on 347's. They look to be about the same numbers wise and well matched to a 331 I'd think. Plus, you can always sell your current intake to recover much of the cost.
I think you forgot the link.
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Impulsive
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(Post Master Supreme)
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01/22/13 08:25 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Lol.
http://www.mustang50magazine.com/techarticles/m5lp_0601_mustang_intake_manifold_test/viewall.html
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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01/23/13 11:29 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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That's so funny. That's pretty much the exact engine like I have, minus the cubes. Article says that in a fully dressed Mustang, that motor would have made 360whp, and that's on probably better gas (aka more timing), as well as long tubes, better intake manifold, and no cats. I'm not too far away from where I should be, and I am definitely looking into getting a different intake manifold at this point. Once the cats are ditched, and different intake manifold is installed, I'd really like to see a bit more range, as well as maybe crack 350whp.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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I dont think that would work at all on a mass-air electronically fuel injected car... it goes into limp mode and runs rich when air bypasses the mass-air sensor
my experience with EEC-IV controlled cars is that an intake manifold leak = instant shit power
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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02/14/13 10:59 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Bit of an update.
The car is currently at the shop that built the engine. The new engine is leaking oil from around the rear. Brand new engine should not leak anything, I've expressed that very clearly to the shop owner. He is taking care of it, or at least trying to. After that, I'm taking the car back to the shop that did the tune. Something has happened to it, and it's running very rich at idle, idle is unstable, and it backfires through intake on sudden throttle.
After that's done, it's going to my friend, who is going to take care of the clutch cable interference, remove the air pump along with EGR, and take care of a few loose ends around the car. I've also got rid of the small bassani cats. They weren't doing anything, and the droning inside of the car was unreal. I've replaced them with 18 inch resonators, and that changed things significantly, as far as being able to live with it.
Also, my friend posted an old photo today on facebook, as part of throwback thursdays, and it kinda inspired me to dig up an old photo, and post it too. This is from May 26th 2007. My first track day. Who would have though, I would still have the same car from then.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Something has happened to it, and it's running very rich at idle, idle is unstable, and it backfires through intake on sudden throttle.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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02/15/13 11:25 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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I really doubt pushrod got bent again. It happened The first week the car was running, and the hardened pushrods were replaced with chromoly. Those should be up to the job. The rockers have been relashed by the shop that did the tune, I could ask them to take a look at the rockers again, when they have it back for the tune. They are not too loud, so I'm not entirely certain that they could be loose, but it won't hurt to check, and I'll definitely mention it.
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Impulsive
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(Post Master Supreme)
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02/15/13 02:37 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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What a pain. I've had issues with shops before and it turned into a nightmare. Hopefully this is not an issue in your case and everything gets buttoned tuned up soon.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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02/25/13 02:05 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Update 02/25/2013
Well another update for you guys. The car is still at the shop that built the motor. They are working on getting rid of all leaks. Since the transmission had to come out, I've told the owner to take the tranny to the transmission shop, and have all leaks fixed as well. It's been leaking a good deal as well, so now is as good of time as any to address that.
I've also planned a bit of weight loss. I've been trying to figure out what can be removed without being totally obvious, and I've decided that I will remove rear seats, rear seatbelts, rear floor mats, spare tire with jack, get lighter track wheels, and replace my reclining Sparco Torino II with non-reclining Sparco Evo. I've already bought the seats for 600 dollars for the pair this weekend, so the plan is partially in motion. I've also put a deposit on wheels at a shop nearby, so pretty soon I will have a set of Enkei RPF1 in 17x10 wrapped in 275 Nitto NT01s for the track. I've also researched what some of the parts I'm removing weight on the forums. Here is how it breaks down.
Rear seat removal: -40 lbs
Spare tire and jack: -32 lbs
Torino II to Evo swap: -30 lbs
Aluminum side mount brakets: +5 lbs
Cobra R to RPF1 wheel change: -16 lbs
Reinstall strut tower brace and K-member brace: +15 lbs
Rear floor mats: -2 lbs
At the end of the day, I'm looking at roughly 100 lbs weight saving in something that's not really all that noticeable otherwise to naked eye. 16 lbs of that will be from unsprung weight, which should make a good bit of difference in how the car responds to road surface, not to mention better sidewall action, and more tire on the ground. I will keep you guys updated with any other information. Here is the picture of the seats, from my hipstergram.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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02/26/13 11:45 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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And another thing I've decided. Since the car is going back to the tune shop, for tune clean up, I said fuck it, bit the bullet, and ordered a better intake manifold. The manifold is a Trickflow R Series, which is good from 2500 to 7200 rpm. It's been recommended by pretty much everyone on the forum, requires no porting for 75mm throttle body. This should really open up top end power.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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nice....
I take it since it's still at the engine building shop it's still missing/backfiring? Another good possibility is another vacuum leak...which maybe found/addressed by the installation of the new manifold.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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02/26/13 12:28 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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I'll leave it to them to figure out. Right now it's getting leaks fixed. After that's complete, I will take it to the shop that tuned it, and have them install the intake manifold, and tune it again, and then drive it for a couple of days to make sure all is good.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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02/28/13 05:28 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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The shop called, and the leaks are fixed according to them. They've used dye this time, and found that some bolts were loose by the rear of the oil pan. The transmission was resealed as well, since it was out of the car. Picking it up today, and it's going to sit in the garage until it goes to the tuning shop for intake manifold swap, and retune.
Intake manifold arrived yesterday, and the ports look a good deal bigger. I'm pretty stoked to see what will happen now.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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03/03/13 09:16 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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The wheels... I can has full set.
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FCobra94
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(Post Master Supreme)
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03/04/13 03:54 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Wheels/tires look great!
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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03/04/13 06:46 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Thanks. I can't wait to have it out at the track. I haven't been to a proper track event since December 2011. I'm going to try to make it to Buttonwillow in a month. This will be the first shakedown for the car.
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LNXGUY
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(Post Master Supreme)
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03/05/13 07:19 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Is this normal for getting an engine built? Seems like one thing after another.. I'd be fucking pissed off
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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03/05/13 08:40 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Its the story of my life. Nothing ever goes right when I do a big build. Its ok though, I've got a daily driver, so mustang downtime does not bother me as much. Should be running pretty stout by the end of the month. Then shakedown at Buttonwillow in april
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LNXGUY
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(Post Master Supreme)
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03/06/13 09:45 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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I am looking forward to positive updates from you, lol. I'm sure it will be nice to finally get it back on the track.
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Impulsive
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(Post Master Supreme)
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03/06/13 11:39 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Is this normal for getting an engine built? Seems like one thing after another.. I'd be fucking pissed off
I think you'd be amazed at how bad even reputable shops are. Always take longer than planned (usually 2-3 times as long), there are often lingering issues, they fix about half the issues in double the visits, then you're left to sort the remaining ones.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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03/06/13 12:18 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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This is why I'm having 3 different shops work on the list I've got. Here is my to do list.
Shop that built the motor:
- Oil Leak from the harmonic balancer
- Oil Leak from rear of engine, scatter shield
- Transmission fluid leak
Shop that did tuning:
- Tune
-- Very rich idle
-- Backfire through intake
-- High idle
--- Starts at 1000 in the morning
--- Rises to 1500 - 1700 once driven
-- High idle hang
--- 1500 - 1700 when it motion
--- Would be better if 1100
-- Possible Cause:
--- Check for bent pushrod
--- Check for loose rocker
- Intake Manifold: Trick Flow R-Series
-- Install
-- Tune
- Check for exhaust leaks
- Install strut tower brace
- Cap off vacuum line from Brake Booster (no longer in use)
My fabricator friend
- Coolant overflow bottle
- Oil breather hose into oil catch can, routed back into intake
- Reroute battery cable, replace zip ties with proper cable hangers
- Install 99+ V8 Pedal set, move hydroboost unit where it should be
- Fabricate and install clutch cable bracket to work with new oil pan
- Install starter
- Route air injection hoses, clear them away from exhaust.
- Check hydroboost lines for leaks
- Install K-member brace
- Adapt intake elbow to work with 80mm MAF
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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03/07/13 01:31 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Ok, the car is at the tune shop. They have intake manifold, and they will also order an MSD box as well, just to smooth out the rpm band. The question is, will the new intake manifold and ignition box plus removed cats deliver at least 24 rwhp and more top end range? I'll find out next week.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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cats are usually 5-10. Have my doubts about the intake unfortunately 
good luck
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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03/07/13 06:33 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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cats are usually 5-10. Have my doubts about the intake unfortunately good luck
Well, the current intake is holding the cam back. It's peaking at 5200, where the cam is actually good for power past 6k. I'm really hoping to see more range and higher peak power with it.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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24 whp would be a ridiculous gain for intake and some stronger spark. Good luck!
Edit: just saw the most recent list, brake booster no longer used? Have you converted to manual brakes?
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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03/07/13 07:38 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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No, I went to hydroboost off the later modular SN95. Cam was not building enough vacuum, so I had 3 choices. Go with vacuum pump, go manual, or go hydroboost. I've picked hydroboost.
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FCobra94
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(Post Master Supreme)
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03/08/13 01:16 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Why are you choosing to get rid of the cats? That sounds like a PITA when it comes time for emissions, etc.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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03/08/13 01:26 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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This motor will not pass emissions, I'm certain of that. I still have the stock H-pipe, but I'm pretty sure that the cam is too wild for the great state of California.
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Impulsive
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(Post Master Supreme)
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03/08/13 01:49 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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cats are usually 5-10. Have my doubts about the intake unfortunately good luck
I think 320WH or so is pretty weak for the combo he has. A solid tune, no cats and better breathing intake should really wake this up. Power peak at 5200 rom is pretty low with those parts.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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03/21/13 07:11 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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So bad news everybody. While the intake manifold was getting installed, it was discovered that my cam gear was ground down... cam is getting replaced with a billet custom grind and distributor gear will be replaced with composite one. Since we are going custom, I will most likely make the cam slightly more aggressive than standard off shelf XE282HR. More updates to come.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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So bad news everybody. While the intake manifold was getting installed, it was discovered that my cam gear was ground down... cam is getting replaced with a billet custom grind and distributor gear will be replaced with composite one. Since we are going custom, I will most likely make the cam slightly more aggressive than standard off shelf XE282HR. More updates to come.
That sucks...sorry this has turned out to be such a pain!
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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03/22/13 03:11 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Its not the end of the world. I'm getting the cam warrantied. Once we have the specs worked out, cam will be ordered, and work will resume
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Impulsive
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(Post Master Supreme)
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03/22/13 05:17 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Ugh.
Hopefully this is fixed quick with some awesome results.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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03/27/13 11:30 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Stopped by the shop today, to check out progress. Had a chance to check out what the cam gear looked like. The teeth were ground down to what looked like knife edge. Really weird. They will take apart the engine next week and find out what caused this.
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hustler
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(Post Master Sr)
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04/17/13 12:58 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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So where are you at with this. Did they take it a part. It almost sounds like either the cam is not degree'd in correctly and they just threw it in possibly straight up without confirming the cam matched the spec'd cam. Manufacturers do f'up sometimes and then you still have to assume the installer put it in right. I could see how premature wear either to due to mesh misalignment or incorrect gear materials meshing would throw your timing off as well, but if they do pull the timing cover I would verify they have what you bought in there and they are confirming the specs.
I'm going through a similar deal setting up my cam because I have very little PV clearance with the cam installed straight up and 2 degrees retarded on the only retarded keyway. So I'm stuck manipulating a few more degrees by advancing the cam and moving the cam gear over a tooth. It's a bummer because I will no doubt have to run the cam slightly retarded to gain the intake valve clearance.
good read here too..
http://www.fordmuscleforums.com/all-ford-techboard/446050-distributor-gear-nightmare.html
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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you can always flycut/clearance the eyebrows on the pistons a bit no?
I think the harmonic balancer can soak up a gram or two being removed
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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04/18/13 04:58 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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I'm supposed to find out either today or tomorrow about what's happening. Then we will assess the situation, and take action from there. I'll call shop tomorrow and find out what the deal is.
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hustler
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(Post Master Sr)
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04/22/13 04:04 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Well that's good to hear you are staying on it. Flycutting pistons will be costly, i will dump money into a one use tool and since the assembly was balanced not sure I want to risk flycutting pistons and taking out too much material. Easier just to retard the cam and give up some torque below 6k.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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04/26/13 12:06 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Just got a call from the shop where my car is right now. So, here is the breakdown:
The cam was the right cam I've ordered. The reason why the cam gear wore off is because the retainer plate was not tightened down properly, didn’t have any Loctite on it like it was supposed to. It backed off, leaving the cam to slide back and forward freely. Sounds like a builder error to me. The bearings luckily are not contaminated, but have a bit of a side load wear on them. The shop has suggested putting a main cap girdle on it, to prevent the caps from moving around. Additionally, the torque specs on the bottom end were all over the place.
So, work required is:
1.Replace Ford Racing oil pump with a Melling high volume piece
2.Replace stock oil pump driveshaft with a stronger one
3.Replace all main and rod bearings since the bottom end is already open.
4.Replace press in oil galley plugs on the front of the motor with screw in plugs
5.Install main cap girdle, secure with ARP studs
6.Retorque everything on the engine.
7.Install a more aggressive camshaft. We are still trying to decide which one, but the engine builder wants to square up intake and exhaust, as well as go with 110 LSA over current 112.
I’ve authorized all work, and I’ll give updates to you guys as they come.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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04/28/13 09:57 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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About the wheels. The tire is the same I used to run. Wheel is one inch wider, and 4 lbs lighter than what I used to have (95 Cobra Rs)
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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05/06/13 04:41 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Some follow up pictures of damage to camshaft.
You can see in the images above where the backing plate bolt backed off, and let the camshaft slide loose around the motor. It wasn’t much, but it was enough to do this.
The camshaft gear teeth are like knife’s edges at this point, I probably had another 50 miles before they would have been gone completely. I’ve sent a detailed email to original shop that did the work first time, explaining everything, and asking him to pay the bill. We’ll see what happens. I already have a case pending with Amex.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Good luck w/ that...though I'll be surprised if you get more than a few hundred dollars.
The reality is that the first shop should submit your bill to their insurance carrier and take the hit on their screw-up. But too often professional pride steps in and they'll want to fight it. I'd be ready to take them to small claims court, or see if Judge Judy has any openings, lol.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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05/07/13 11:43 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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I'll get American Express involved first. Then we'll see what happens.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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this is why we can't have nice things
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Impulsive
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(Post Master Supreme)
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05/07/13 03:59 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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It is so hard to deal with any shop, even reputable ones seem like junk the minute something goes wrong.
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hustler
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(Post Master Sr)
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05/07/13 04:34 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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You've had a good attitude through this. Just stay with it. Could be that while degree'ing cam they didn't loctite the bolts, they don't take a lot of torque on the retaining plate like you mentioned on the last go around, or they didn't check end play to make sure it was within tolerance. I'm finding out how much detail work goes into engine assembly and it requires a lot of knowledge and time to do things right. This kind of stuff can be trying on your patience, it's tough. I've had to invest considerable money in specific tools to engine assembly. The only way I've been able to justify it is that I would have payed that much or more in labor for someone else. I may blow up mine though on the first kick over anyway but that's what I have convinced myself of  Keep a good head and you'll get it going.
Also be careful with HV pumps, they will really contribute to grinding away at any bronze or composite teeth with the extra load on the pumps if you have any misalignment. you will be racing the engine for sustained periods and need good oil pressure, but the windsor oiling design was pretty good. better than the cleveland as i've learned in recent years. i've twisted the stock pump shaft after some internal pump piece failed and jambed between the pump gears which locked the pump and turned the shaft into a twizzler stick. I replaced it with a Coast High Hardened piece, but the reality is even that would have snapped or something else would have snapped in my particular case. My guess is if the pump didn't fail, the distributor gear would have been the next weak link. Either way the pan would have had to come off assuming i shut it off in time before crap got sucked into a semi working pump. Luckily when I saw no oil pressure i turned the motor off immediately after i heard the pop. i ran it for a few more months with numerous leaks on the rear main before i finally retired it for my last build, but it came out of storage 8 years later and i spent the time sealing the pan and replacing the seal and its finally running good again. my feeling is the stock pump shaft is like a fuse much like basic head gaskets. It's telling you something else is wrong.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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05/14/13 07:30 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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A bit of an update. The original shop is not paying for the labor done by the new shop, but at least they will refund me for the broken parts. It’s not what I was looking for, but at least it’s something. The motor is disassembled, and being worked on now. Motor should be together this week, fired up and tuned next week hopefully.
Also over the weekend I installed an aluminum driveshaft for a friend of mine on his foxbody. I liked it so much, I’ve ordered one for myself as well, hopefully won’t have clearance issues with my e-brake bracket. Not really concerned much about the weight savings, but more about the driveshaft being lighter, and causing less vibration through driveline, which is a big deal when you have a torque arm.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Probably the best you're gonna get out of the old shop without wasting a bunch of money on a lawyer...
Sounds like its coming along!
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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05/31/13 06:33 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Oh hi, remember me?
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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looking good! install part deux....
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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06/01/13 12:09 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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I'm really stoked with how the new shop is treating the engine. They went through the whole thing, retorqued everything, replaced what needed to be. On top of that they made it look like an engine that's got a lot of money into it, which it does. When it came out of the other shop, it leaked, and barely ran, all brackets were dirty. This time, everything is cleaned, parts are painted, they even went ahead and painted the bolt heads... I was thoroughly impressed, and I hope this is the taste of how the engine will run as well.
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g96nt
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(Jr Poster)
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06/06/13 03:24 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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huzzaaaah!!!
There's a local guy that spent a crap load building a turbo mazda 6 engine, and when finished,the engine(although machined well) looked like any old junkyard engine on the outside. Even when I send a head out to be planed, my guy takes the time to hot tank it, and clean it, and generally. make it look "new".
Any engine leaving a machine shop should look like it's brand new, to me.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Is it in yet?
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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That's what she asked me. 
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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06/11/13 09:07 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Nope. Shop fell behind on the work. It's been sitting doing nothing the past week. They sincerely apologized, and promised it to be complete, broken in and tuned end of next week.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Broken in yet?
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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06/27/13 01:20 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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The motor is in the car, they are tying up some loose ends right now. Should be fired up either today or tomorrow, then break in, and then power tune. I'm guessing it will be done by the end of next week.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Sweet, can't wait to hear how she runs.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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07/03/13 01:34 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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So I called the shop, and got some news today. The car is not making the power I was looking for. The motor peaks closer to 6k now, but it's down on power under curve by comparison to previous camshaft. It lost torque, it lost drivability, it lost start up... I'm not in a happy place right now. Other than higher peak, it's a step back in every way. In short, higher flowing intake manifold, more aggressive camshaft, removal of cats, cold air intake have actually lost me power.
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madmatt
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(Post Master Supreme)
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07/04/13 08:52 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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car is cursed...what the hell man
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LNXGUY
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(Post Master Supreme)
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07/04/13 11:22 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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This is the norcal story of SVA, I'm convinced.
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Impulsive
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(Post Master Supreme)
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07/04/13 11:26 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Yeah, this sucks. You'd think a small block Ford build would be like leggo by now. Want 350WH, use these off the shelf parts.
I'm sure it will work out. This reminds me of a lot of issues I'd had with local shops. So hard to find anyone who can finish anything on time and done right.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Jesus... "the struggles".
I hope you get it sorted but makes me think my Ellis Maverick idea is a pretty good one.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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when you get a chance, see if you can get a printout of the dyno up on here...
I'm guessing we're looking at a different dyno than was used before? Same type (ie, dynojet/mustang)?
Don't take a long walk off a short pier just yet...all issues are solveable, and some might not even be issues per se.
Let's see what's up.
But even more importantly, run it...see how it drives, how it pulls. I, for one, believe "under the curve" is an entirely overused phrase that doesn't mean as much as many believe it to. Under the curve may be desireable in engine building dyno competitions, but the reality is that peaky engines can be just as, if not more stout than many with the "area under the curve" advantage...because aside from the 1-2 shift, many/most cars don't drop too many rpm's from 2nd-3rd, 3nd-4th where many/most road races occur, and a majority of the time drag racing is spent.
Let's see it.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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07/05/13 11:11 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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You guys wanted to see the dyno. Well, here it is.
Same exact dyno machine, the difference is the mods listed previously. The cams are labeled, and it is very clear that at any given engine speed, the new cam makes way less power, and a giant amount less of torque. I did not even bother driving it, because there is no point. This is a huge step back. I should not have to pay a lot of money, to get my car back slower than it was originally.
I've already decided what I'm going to do. They are pulling that camshaft out, and I will order a custom cam from Ed Curtis (massive reputation on Corral), based on the build specs of the engine.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Wow...this sucks. No getting around it...you were MUCH better off with the original XE282 HR.
What were the final specs on the cam? I saw only that the builder wanted to tighten up the LSA and "Square up" the cam (I'm guessing even up duration/lift b/w intake and exhaust).
From the looks of it, it looks as if you've given up a ton of dynamic compression.
It says "304HR" so I'm guessing they spec'd 304 hyd roller intake lobe? If they "squared it up" and running on a 110 LSA, that's a LOT of cam (244 deg duration @ .050!) for such a little engine, especially a fuel injected one with very good heads. And you're already hurting for low-end torque w/o long tubes! The guy who selected the lobes went a bit wild, holy hell!
I'm still a fan of something in the 228-232 range, 112-110 lsa range on the intake side. Make sure whoever is specing your new cam, send him these dyno graphs...
I'm a big believer in specing cams a little on the small side...especially against what most suggest, especially when running good heads. A great recipe for street/strip engines are great heads and smaller cam....
I'm running heads that flow 300+cfm and am running a 228/236 @ .050 cam, 109lsa cam, ground with 3 degrees advance, slightly small carb, and even with undersized headers still put 378hp through a fairly loose converter/heavy auto trans and truck rear end. With the new stepped headers and ignition I am hoping to sniff 400whp...
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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You know, it's funny...I've got the comp camquest engine sim program. I can select either off the shelf comp xe282hr or select a 304HR...and it pretty much shows exactly what we see here. (331 ci, using 5.0 trick flow intake, small long tube headers w/o cats and AFR 185 heads and using it's recorded flow data, 10.5 compression)
With the xe282, you get peak flywheel HP (and likely more in line with "gross" rating too) of 513hp @ 6500rpm, and peak torque of 447 @ 5000rpm.
Switch to the 304 HR and you get 501hp @ 7000rpm and 424ft-lbs of torque at 5500rpm with very similar looking power-bands.
286 HR nets you 515hp/450ft-lbs of torque. (this was the single highest HP I saw from the various available cams with the combo I spec above and specs 230/230 @.050 110 lsa, ground w/ 4 degrees advance)
XE274 hr nets you 501/456 with a nice wide power band.
XE 276 hr almost the exact same as the xe 274.
xe 270 HR 495/457 w/ power peaking at 6000 rpm.
xe266 HR 485/453 with probably the fattest looking powerband.
I mean, these aren't exact...but I've always found them helpful for changing and comparing...and it usually works out as I expect it too, though sometimes it can show sharply diverging info from what I expect...
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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I'd LOVE to see the "new" engine combined with the "old" 282 cam. 282 advertised is really nothing to sneeze at for a street engine.
Edit: do you have to pull the engine to swap the cam?
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Impulsive
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(Post Master Supreme)
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07/05/13 10:02 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Something is off.
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GB
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(Post Master Supreme)
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07/06/13 04:36 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Lol this is a joke. I'd want to light the fucking car on fire and commit insurance fraud by now.
This is, in no way, acceptable. In any form or nuance. Should have just thrown in a 4.8 and turbocharged lol
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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At this point I'd say run it at the track, fuck it. Sometimes dynos are off.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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07/06/13 08:28 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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I'm getting a custom cam already. Supposed to be one of the top guys for cams on Corral, Ed Curtis from FTI
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Cool, I have the comp cam 274hr on my 302, seemed ok (318 rwhp, 115 traps at 3100# race weight)
He actually told me to just run the 274 , heh
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Did you get the cam recommendation yet?
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hustler
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(Post Master Sr)
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07/09/13 02:07 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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I was able to confirm what valiant had with dyno 2000 which is regarded as a entry simulator. i have the perf trends one as well but use dyno 2k because at one point I had created many ford specific cam/heads related files for it from data I could find online. The 304 did lose considerable low/mid range torque and a bit of hp compared to the 282 all else being equal on the 331 fairly similar to what you have spec'd. Both peak at 6k with hp and 4500 rpm for torque. You can see the new shorter runner intake moved the peak hp in your dyno though. I also realized the Anderson N-71 is very similar in spec to the Comp 282 when i threw a couple cams at it. I've got some FTI, buddy rawls, keith craft, cam motion cams that folks have posted specs on from sales and just what they shared online over the years but most of it was blower spec related cams so not very useful here. Tried to see if I had a Ed curtis 331 cam but its an HR for a blower. I will throw all my NA HR stuff at it and see what it spits out with more detailed specs tomorrow since its getting late.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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07/09/13 02:41 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Hustler, thanks for input. This place really does feel like home. Just to think that people didn't like me here 8 years ago.
Valiant, no specs yet. I'll let FTI figure it out, and run it once I get it. I'm sure it will be awesome, judging by an overwhelming positive feedback on Corral
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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07/12/13 11:36 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Got the specs. More lift than ever at .613, and less duration than I've had before, even with the XE282HR. Look like some fast aggressive ramps. This should be interesting. LSA is at 111.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Sounds like an interesting cam...do you have the lobe centerline number?
Can't wait to see what she does when all is said and done...
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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07/12/13 01:08 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Yeah, centerline is 108.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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I want to see you guys run computer sims with this new cam and see what they predict.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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07/16/13 06:20 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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I've spent specs to Valiant, so hopefully he'll be able to mock it up. Camshaft should be shipping this week, hopefully.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Kick ass
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Hmph...you're going to have to give it to Hustler...mine won't let me import cam profiles
As you point out, I don't want to give too much in the way of cam profiles since someone put in a lot of thought into the specs. I think if I was to find a way to import this into my software, I'd probably give a touch more torque at very similar rpm's, so very similar/touch more HP numbers as well. It looks like much of the thought process went into making this all work well for driveability w/ fuel injection.
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hustler
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(Post Master Sr)
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07/25/13 11:27 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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yeah sorry I went MIA, I dropped the ball there. I will post some graphs and numbers to compare for you guys to quarterback with when i get the specs for the new cam
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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07/25/13 05:32 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Don't even worry about it. Thank you for looking into cam specs. I'm really looking forward to seeing what kind of performance I will be able to get with that cam in my motor.
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hustler
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(Post Master Sr)
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07/25/13 11:33 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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What is the compression on the motor. Cam specs look like its being run straight up right? You have small tube shortys and mufflers too right? Here is preliminary with 10.5 compression
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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07/26/13 12:54 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Hmm, seems like the cam makes power down lower, but not very well up top. How accurate would you say this software is? The gap between 282 and 304 is a lot larger on my dyno, but I did also switch to a different intake manifold, and ditched the cats.
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hustler
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(Post Master Sr)
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07/26/13 11:59 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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I wouldn't put too much on the actual numbers from this program. I tend to think it spits out higher numbers. The problem with this program is you can't get very detailed with input. Junk in is junk out. I had a hard time inputting EFI intake CFM capability because of how flow numbers are calculated by runner often times. This program only lets me input two types water pressure for flow and I wasn't sure how to convert it for the intake flow if you can even do that.
I think it will be interesting to see this cam because you only give up a little peak hp for a ton of average usable TQ throughout the range. After 6k its a waste to make power because you don't want to float the valves.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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07/26/13 12:12 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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So, you don't think I'll be able to break 350whp mark?
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hustler
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(Post Master Sr)
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07/29/13 01:53 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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I can only guess, but the sim indicates the cam will broaden the average hp and torque across the range while letting go of a little peak hp. It's hard to say what it will do on the dyno though. You have full accessories, shorty headers and not sure what mufflers etc. Have you seen examples of similar compression 331's with accessories making over 350whp? I really have no clue on what to expect for 331's I've seen some wild ones stripped of accessories with open exhausts where people were making close to 400whp but that is way different. I have no clue what a full accessory car should make. Are the springs you currently have recommended for the cam you had spec'd?
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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07/29/13 01:59 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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It's true, that I'm still running full accessories, and shortie headers. I have no cats on the car anymore, and Bassani mufflers, which are pretty much a straight through muffler design. I have seen a few 331 builds, and it would seem like most of them are close to putting that kind of power down. What really didn't stack up to me, is how did I end up losing power by going to better components. I guess time will only tell what's going to happen with this motor, and how much power it will make. I'm really hoping that the cam will pick up peak power as well, and hit that mark finally.
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hustler
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(Post Master Sr)
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07/31/13 12:52 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Well bigger isn't always better, a TFS-R intake has shorter runners than most 302 intakes out there. Much like a Vic 5.0 the powerband gets extended past 7k rpm which unless you are racing in that rpm makes it useless. You are giving up torque for that extra kick in that peak rpm range. I learned this the hard way putting a sytemax intake on my stock e7 headed 302 with an e303. That engine was a dog. I lost a ton of torque until I got the blower put on. I probably made it worse with the 70mm accufab TB. The best examples of particular cubic inch engines have always been the ones with components matched to a particular power level. I did find a few examples online with 331's making 350-360 whp but had a few more points of compression which goes a long way with n/a motors.
How was drive-ability when you had the car out before the dyno's? Did the car fall on its face or flatten while accelerating, stumble during acceleration? Any popping? Just trying to get an idea of the tune. I see most people recommended a 4.10-4.56 gear when running the TFS-R on an n/a 302-347 with a R intake. What gears are you running?
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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07/31/13 04:53 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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I'm on 3.08:1 gears, part of that is because I need the range on some tracks. This would be a different case, if I had a useable 5th gear, but I don’t, so I have to keep the rear end ratio at what it is, and drive it like a 4 speed. I’ll see what the powerband will be like after it’s all done, maybe I’ll get something different then, but probably not for a while. I did not even bother driving the new combo around, since I was not pleased with the result at all. As for the intake, almost everyone on Corral recommended a Trickflow-R. The runners aren't that much shorter honestly, and hopefully this new custom camshaft will make the best of what I've got on there now.
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hustler
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(Post Master Sr)
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08/01/13 01:59 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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I understand your dilemma. That car would wake up though with some more gear. Think after you get this last round done I would fix the T5 to get 5th back and start figuring out what rpm you can tolerate for cruising in 5th by testing 4th. I found I could tolerate 3k rpm with a few c4 3 speed setups but everyone is different.
I will admit I've never tried to build a powerful naturally aspirated 8.2 deck motor, I was always going the blower route. The market is saturated with head and intake offerings though for these motors, so there are a lot of arguments as to what works best for 331-347 strokers. But you have to weed through the BS to get recommendations based on context. With the new cam, I would give it a whirl and make sure there is no premature distributor gear wear and that its aligned etc. Tuning for WOT is easier than drive-ability so make sure the thing drives well on part throttle when you do get it tuned.
http://forums.corral.net/forums/5-0-5-8-engine-tech/506739-tfs-r-intake-331-too-much.html
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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08/01/13 04:00 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Oh, T5 is not broken and 5th is fine. The problem is that gear ratio on 5th gear drops me down rpm band significantly, going from 1.00 to .68. As far as racing goes, it is unuseable, which is why I have to treat this transmission for what it really is, a 4 speed with overdrive 5th. If I had a T56 with 5 gears for racing, I would have geared the car as soon as I would have seen what the powerband is like.
As far as partial throttle tuning goes, I told them very specifically that I want a car that drives well, so keep it for longer time, drive it around, and give it back to me when it drives well. Based on the cam specs, Valiant believes that the profile design has a lot of thought about driveability and working well with fuel injection. I kinda doubted the intake manifold selection myself, but almost everyone mentioned either going with this one or SystemaxII, which I hear is good for high flow strokers as well. You said that the intake manifold like that would lose me torque. Wouldn’t that be bottom end, or is it across the band?
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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08/02/13 09:01 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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The cam is finally shipping today. Weeeeee!
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hustler
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(Post Master Sr)
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08/02/13 05:40 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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i just found your thread on corral, kudos for sticking it out. One thing you should do is calculate compression. If you know what pistons you have, the heads are box stock right, so you should know the cc on the chambers. Do you know which head gaskets you have? I can help you calculate the compression as that still seems like an unknown based on that thread. Did the block get decked when they rebuilt the block? If so do you know how much was shaved? Might be in the build sheet. If they had another machinist do, you might be able to find that out. There may be nothing you can do outside of having the heads shaved to bring up compression and or thinner HG, but at least you will know what expectation of power you could achieve with the new cam. As I'm building my 357 I'm realizing how important compression is on a naturally aspirated motor. I see guys pushing the limits of a 11.0:1 aluminum headed 91/92 pump gas motors. Compression means that much more power. There is a reason I haven't finished buttoning mine up yet either, degreeing a cam is very important. Make sure these ding dongs do it right. I assume FTI spec'd the cam to be installed straight up, so they should have a harder time fu$%^#ing that up. Keep us updated and if you can get me specs on head chamber cc, gasket thickness, bore size, piston cc whether they are flat tops, have reliefs, or are domes. Guessing by the estimated compression they have reliefs or are dished.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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08/02/13 06:32 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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I’ve checked the compression already. Here is the info I got. According to build spec sheet, the block was decked .017”, and then piston sits 0.015” inside the bore. The heads are off the shelf AFR 185, which have 58cc chambers. Block was bored .030 over, which makes it a 4.030” bore. Gasket has a 4.080” bore, and 0.040” compressed thickness. Pistons are flat top with 5cc valve relief. Stoke is 3.25”. Based on all of that, and using Summit calculator, I’ve figured that I’ve got a 10.1:1 compression motor.
It looks like FTI did want this cam installed straight up. I don’t think they will screw up degree of the camshaft while installing it. I’ll let you guys know once the motor is fired up, and tuned. For now this is all I’ve got.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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In MOST cases, custom cams should be installed straight up. Basically the cam already has three degrees of advance already ground in. Most cams have advance ground into it which closes the valves earlier (for a given amount of intake duration), building increased cylinder pressure vs same size cam w/o advance.
To get the number of degrees advance ground INTO the cam, simply take the LSA and subtract the intake lobe centerline. The difference gives you the number of degrees the cam is "advanced" when installed straight up...which in this cam's case, is 3 degrees (4 is pretty typical).
ALL ELSE BEING EQUAL, I am not sure that the custom cam and compxe you had before would make a ton of difference powerwise...but I am sure that what you had before and what you'll have now won't be equal in terms of build quality/attention to detail, meaning, you'll probably find a bit more power.
I say with a fair degree of certainty that you'll be happy with the results in terms of performance...
In this case, as I had stated earlier, I really do think a lot of thought was put into increasing it's driveability...similar size to the compxe with reduced overlap bodes well for you imo.
I would love to see you eventually go with longtubes though....
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Impulsive
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(Post Master Supreme)
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08/02/13 10:15 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Hardly on Ugly's level of knowledge, but agree on the longtubes.
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hustler
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(Post Master Sr)
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08/07/13 08:19 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Bump your compression, gears, longtubes, drop some weight and you are all set
http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_...g&v=KCTVy1_xCZg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m-7efuVjJg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWfYJyBUl5o
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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08/08/13 12:45 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Dude, that thing is retarded fast. Also, camshaft has been delivered to the shop. They are going to start on it on Tuesday.
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GB
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(Post Master Supreme)
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08/08/13 02:46 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Jesus!!!!
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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08/09/13 12:58 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Finally... The Ed Curtis custom cam, just for me Hopefully the results will be good.
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Impulsive
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(Post Master Supreme)
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08/09/13 02:08 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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I can tell by the lobes that it will be a scorcher. Good luck.
This thread has made me glad I didn't decide to tear up my Mustang myself - though I should have skipped a certain Sentra.
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AMG SiR
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(Post Master Sr)
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08/16/13 08:20 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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So for serious.... this needs to get happening.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Seconded
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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08/19/13 01:34 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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I've been told that it will be ready to go by the end of this week. We'll see. Last week they didn't do anything.
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hustler
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(Post Master Sr)
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08/26/13 11:43 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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where we at?
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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08/26/13 01:55 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Just called the shop to find out. The motor is all back together. They are about about swap the distributor gear back to steel, since the cam is billet. After that, they will drop it in, and fire it up. Should be ready to go either thursday or friday.
They also did a clearance check for valve to piston distance, and there was plenty of space, over 0.100" of an inch.
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Impulsive
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(Post Master Supreme)
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08/26/13 03:46 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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How long until it's dyno'ed?
I also thought Billet cam = bronze gear?
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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08/26/13 04:20 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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No, the opposite. Cast cam = bronze gear. Billet cam = steel gear.
Dyno day: I don't know, and I'm not going to guess this time how much power it makes. Tired of making estimates, and getting disappointing results.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Progress!
Don't sweat it, as long as it makes in the realm of what its supposed to make you'll have enough power (probably too much) for road racing.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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08/26/13 07:05 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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lol, too much... highly unlikely.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Too much is never enough!
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hustler
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(Post Master Sr)
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08/27/13 07:42 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Billet steel core with pressed iron gear can use sadi cast distributor gear. Most race billet cams have a tempered steel cam gear which requires bronze or composite which do wear quicker.
So I had some time tonight and ran everything through Performance Trends Engine Analyzer. I used a cfm from a 75mm Accufab TB? Not sure what you have. Are you using a clutch fan or electric. These numbers are with electric. Had a harder time guesstimating cfm of your 2.5 exhaust. what is the average length on your shorty header? 1 5/8 diameter i presume on that is what i could find. What size injectors, I used 36lb'ers
FTI Cam
Comp XE282 Cam
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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08/27/13 10:14 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Electric fan is correct, thank you. TB is a 75mm BBK, so I can only assume that Accufab is pretty much identical. I'm curious to see what the car makes.
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A_Mantis
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(Post Master Supreme)
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08/28/13 09:24 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Nice, can't wait to see dyno #'s.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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08/28/13 07:10 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Lost some torque, but gained power and range. Power is almost the same. The dynos are xe282hr, cats, edelbrock manifold vs fti cam, no cats, tfs-r manifold.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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So 332 is to the wheels?
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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08/28/13 07:24 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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yep
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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If Hustler's sims are flywheel then you're right on the money. The thing should be a beast on a road course and the street, what's the weight 2800?
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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08/28/13 08:14 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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3360 lbs with full tank. I'm picking it up tomorrow
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Good luck, this project has been a saga!
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hustler
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(Post Master Sr)
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08/29/13 10:12 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Wow the sim was actually really close on the HP. Yes Scott those are flywheel. So if you multiple 15% drivetrain loss 394*.15=59.1 (HP loss through T5 drivetrain) 394-59.1 = 334.9rwhp So it was basically 2HP off compared to the 332.7. Torque was off, but could be related to what I had for input on exhaust. I had the stock exhaust but just increased the cfm. I haven't dyno'd either of my engines so think I will put mine in and see what it churns out.
Yeah it was a hell of a ride following this build. Hope everything is sorted out now and and you get to drive it. Just for shits I ran the sim with long tube headers, 414 fly which equates to 352 wheel, so you are right where you should be.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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08/29/13 10:40 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Would I lose bottom end torque?
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hustler
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(Post Master Sr)
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08/29/13 12:11 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Below 3000 a little, then you gain it back from 4000+, the average tq is the same between the two @ 362 and average hp goes to 277 from 273. Not trying to push you into the longtubes, more of a help to theorize the magical 350whp you were shooting for. I don't think its surprising you lost peak torque going from the edel rpm with cats to the TFS-R intake. The changes make sense. I also popped in the older AFR 205 and 225 Heads as well as a Vic Jr. and your Revised AFR 185's came out the best.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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08/29/13 12:19 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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So, what would the Edelbrock intake be like with the new cam?
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hustler
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(Post Master Sr)
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08/29/13 03:20 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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you'll have to get me some width/height's of the ports on the lower to help calculate average diameter of the runner as well as runner length. I found some individual flow numbers for a stock RPM1 from Tmoss, but need more info.
http://forums.corral.net/forums/5-0-5-8-...tion-363-a.html
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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One of my Mustang mags did a top end job on a 5L, cylinder head, intake and cam and got 305hp this month and were pretty happy with the results.
My 230whp 3100lb PT Cruiser is a hoot, a 100 extra ache pees would cause some serious tire wear.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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08/29/13 08:13 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Just picked the car up from the shop. Drives extremely well. It actually feels like there is power everywhere, from 1500 to 6500. Really like how it came out,pulls really well, but the power is also super smooth, so you don't feel how fast you are going. Sounds awesome at 6500 lol. I feel like the tuner actually spent a lot of time tuning driveability, because it drives splendid. I could almost drive it every day. throttle is very quick, super responsive. First gearb is nothing but spin lol
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madmatt
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(Post Master Supreme)
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08/29/13 08:41 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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so glad to hear it's finally perfect
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AMG SiR
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(Post Master Sr)
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08/29/13 09:09 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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AWESOME!!
So now some in car video
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Impulsive
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(Post Master Supreme)
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08/29/13 10:24 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Yep, time for vids.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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08/29/13 11:53 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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All I've got for time being. Idle, that's fairly smooth for how aggressive the camshaft is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hagzhql1X0o
and some picture of the car upon it's return.
It does not show up on the pictures, but the car is filthy. I'm getting it fully detailed next weekend.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Sounds really great...glad to read that it drives as well as it does too...that, in my mind, is the advantage of strokers on the street.
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A_Mantis
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(Post Master Supreme)
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09/03/13 06:59 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Lookin' good. Now you have me trolling CL for 96-98 SVT Cobras for sale. 
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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09/03/13 07:21 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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lol, good cars actually. Really like the engine in those. Not so much working on one, due to space constraints.
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hustler
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(Post Master Sr)
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09/05/13 02:07 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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So how does it run, likes dislikes?
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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09/05/13 03:56 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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I haven't had a chance to drive it since I took it back. It's sitting in my parents' garage. One of my buddies is supposed to take care of a whole list of things, once he's done with it, then it should be ready for a nice little shakedown. When I did drive it though, I really liked how it drove.
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A_Mantis
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(Post Master Supreme)
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09/28/13 12:32 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Slightly off topic, but how's your TSX been treating you? Any mods? I'm throwing around the idea of picking up a 1st-gen TSX for a dd.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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09/28/13 10:19 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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It's been pretty reliable. I did have to catch up on some shit when I first bought it, such as motor mounts and warped brakes. Other than that, I absolutely love it. It's quiet, good on gas, super smooth, and is actually a really well balanced chassis. I take canyons to work, so it's fairly fun, steering is awesome. Since I bought it I've clocked almost 20k miles, and it's been a pleasure. Here is a google doc of every dollar I've spent on it since I bought it, minus gas obviously.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ai7nWE7fkq1BdHRxNUo2YXUzejQ0NEZKV1RjZXVfaWc&usp=sharing
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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02/07/14 05:02 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Another update. At the last track day, the car ran like total ass. I barely got it back home, which really pissed me off. So I put the car into another shop, told them to figure out it. The shop owner Eddie from Addiction Motorsports, struck me as someone who knew what he was doing, when working on my car previously. He got to the bottom of the issue. The fuel pressure regulator was leaking gas into the intake manifold. We changed the fuel pressure regulator, retuned the car, and the result was a very surprising 360rwhp and 366rwtq, on a DynoJet. I am pretty happy with the result to say the least, the point that my car will drive well now, well... that's the main point here really. Can't wait to come and pick it up.
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GB
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(Post Master Supreme)
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02/07/14 05:09 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Up until this point, the motor swap had to feel like the worst decision ever though. I bet you spent a shitload on it, and ultimately dealt with SO much frustration during the process.
I bet the car feels great with 36x/36x tho
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Nice! A work buddy recently went through this after a cam install. The one shop could just not get it right. Took it to a different place an within 30 seconds it was running better. A few hours later it was all good.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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02/08/14 12:07 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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You guys should see the torque curve. Super flat. Makes over 300whq from 2500 to 6200.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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02/08/14 05:00 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Design
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(Post Master Supreme)
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02/11/14 11:33 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Very nice dude. Hoping you stick to one tool or another (preferably the Dynapack) so we can see your continued progress.
Oh and just as a reminder, Dynapacks never measure true WHP due to the absence of rotational mass.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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02/11/14 03:41 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Yeah, I figured that the DynoJet results were in order, since they are pretty much reading the same everywhere you go. As far as continued progress goes though, I'm not sure where else to get power from on this car. Virtually everything has been modified, the only thing that's semi affordable at this point will probably be getting a nice set of longtubes or at least shorties with larger primaries.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Wow, beautiful curve!
300NAftlb at any rpm must be a hoot in that stang.
Congrats man, now put on the rpf1s and get out there to give her a good workout (preferably with HD Video)
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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02/12/14 11:07 AM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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I'm going to a small autoX event this weekend, mainly to play around with adjustable rear bar (new piece), try to dial out some understeer. If I have a chance, I'll borrow my friend's GoPro. This won't be on the RPF1s, because the surface is like a cheese grater, and I don't want to waste NT-01s on this, so I'll be rolling on street tire. The way I see it, balance is balance, no matter what tire you are on.
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Impulsive
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(Post Master Supreme)
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02/12/14 01:09 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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I'm just glad it's running strong and putting up numbers in the area it should.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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02/21/14 07:21 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Well, got some seat time at a local small autoX. The car performed better than I expected. First gear is pretty much useless on street tires, so I'd shift out of it very early, and just let the torque do all the talking. The car still has on throttle understeer, which means that I'm essentially bottoming out front suspension. It would rotate once I'd get off the throttle, but that's not the fastest way to go through the corner, so I need to order much stiffer coilovers front and back. It was fun though to finally being able to throttle steer, rear tires got one hell of a workout lol. Motor felt good though, ran fine most of the day. Fuel mileage still sucks, something like 21mpg on hwy. Some pictures.
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Nice. /borat
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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Looking solid, I think my Z06 put up damn near identical numbers when it was stock.
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ReplicaR
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(Post Master Sr)
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02/24/14 05:20 PM
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Re: So, I'm finally building an engine...
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I'm pretty happy with it right now. Next step is to go stiffer on suspension, so I could reduce or eliminate the understeer.
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