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I should have stayed away fron honda tech they keep convincing me to go turbo , now Ive been thinkin of selling the unused vortech and go turbo.. prefebaly Full Race kits looks good, theres one thing i dont really grasp about turbos are the a/r and trims they confused me. I was look at full race AC kits stage 2 GT i need somthing that can provide 300whp, no lag at all"quick spool" and good mids and excellent top end . I also need to keep p/s and A/c. Also ... I hate lag... and i may look into turbo since "aparently the vortech is laggy.... " . In may i will have the ability to build on the vortech and put it on or ... go turbo fully built except sleeves. This car is daily driven Civic Si Ek4 hatchback. Enlighten me gurus of the boost .. |
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even a SC61 which will support 600whp will have less "lag" than your vortec charger. below vtec in a vortec car feels worse than stock IMO. i removed a vortec from a b16 and below vtec felt sooo much better....above vtec was obviously weaker though. for 300whp on a b16 i'd go with a sc34 .48. you could get by with a sc50 but its going to take a little bit more boost to get to your HP goal. a T3.48 5 bolt exhaust with a "E"housing on the compressor side. if you do the full race kit you get to keep your ac/ and power steering with a EL manifold. the back door intercooler set up will help everything be more responsive as well. |
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This site should help you understand about turbo a/r and trim www.turbobygarrett.com .Also i dont think the Vortech has that much lag. Now you dont reach full boost until redline unlike a turbo that sees full boost alot earlier meaning more power potential earlier and longer. Were as a the Vortech is a gradual incline to redline. When i was running the 8-9 psi pulley i would reach 9 at 8200 now with the 10psi pulley i reach 10 at 8200 and 12psi at 8800 rpm cause i can rev that high. Pretty much the Vortech doesnt come produce until your in vtec. I see 5psi at 4800rpms were vtec comes in and boost psi climbs from there to redline. I think even when not in boost the car accelerates faster then when it did without the vortech. So passing a car on the interstate is easier and with less gas with the vortech then when i didnt have it. Same probably goes with a turbo system also I would think. |
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This is a good arguement we have chris sayin the car still feels faster low down and t-charged saying no .. hmm T-charged , chris and t-charged since i havent got the vortech on yet i must think that the turbo lag an vortech lag must feel different right? for example the vortech car may feel more responsive and the turbo is also responsive but not as quite as much at lower revs due to having a turbo u must reduce the CR on the engine while on your vortech setup chris u have stock CR meaning the car shud still feel like stock responsive atleast down low right? T- charged so you wud recommend me a Sc 34 rather than the full race kit? iam lookin into no lag possible at all but i also need excellent top end. If any of you have dynos wud it be posssible to post them to see the powerband and what 1/4miles cud be archieve with this Turbo compared to the vortech. |
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fap blah fap blah fap fap fap |
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rite.... , please any other opinions for anyone? |
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Hmm guess SiAdam wanted the same as me when he went turbo, only thing i have the cash so please no bounderies here also i would like to reach 300-320whp by 15psi 1. Have low-end response "quick spool" or be boosting around the 3000 to 3600 mark 2. Great top-end = very important 3. 300+ whp 4. Dnt mind price at all. 5. Daily driven I found this post from siadam ... check it out .... http://forums.clubsi.com/showflat.php?Ca...;o=&fpart=1 |
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im going to go ahead and say this...i have only really had hands on experiance with one vortec car. i didnt care for it at all. i am going to HOPE that for some weird reason this car just wasnt running good or something....however air/fuel was perfect...it made the boost it was suposed to make....and the compression on the motor was pictuer perfect. actually the b16 ran VERY strong for a b16 after we took the charger off. like i say i hope these other vortec cars are more impressive than this one was..... i think the fullrace kit would be an excelent choice. i was saying something alone the lines of the sc34 would be great for your set up. im just more familiar with the precision part numbers so i threw that out there. |
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Hey T-charged as you can see ive posted my VSC for sale after nearly reading 100 of dynos and comparing it sees that even for a daily driver a turbo seems better and can still give top ends. Anyways could you possibly please setup me up a full kit inculding turbo/mainfold/exhuast/downpipe/intercooler etc etc with the following in mind. 1. Have low-end response "quick spool" or be boosting around the 3000 to 3600 mark 2. Great top-end = very important 3. 300+ whp 4. Dnt mind price at all. 5. Daily driven The turbo can be as expensive as you want so if GT28R ball bearing thingy is better please go ahead, ia asking you specifically becasue u see to be the guru on setups around here lolol , so long as it has a good quick spool and low end but has great top end i dnt mind, aslo ive heard u make 4" exhuast? .. that should help too anyways post back or Pm me. |
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anyone?? |
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Quote: That post brings back memories... Ah, the good ol days.... |
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its late here now...i will get back to you tomarrow with the requested information. i'll try to post some pictures tomarrow of my most recent 4 inch exhaust too |
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Thanks T-charged .. in the mean while i have been looking at evans tuning. The GT28RS with the T3 housing seems nice... The dyno at full race shown its like alm a supercharger torque on the stock gsr. On the other hadn it seems to choke a little on the top end but nothing noticable i think. Anyways T- charged post your recommendations when possible. |
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.. bump ... |
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hey man i was slammed all day doing another custom exhaust and tuning a car.....i didnt have time to get anything done that i needed to...i will do my best to get back to you with that stuff tomarrow. its tuff trying to do the tuning/welding/fabbing/officestuff/internet stuff yourself!! |
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well even though i am not Joe i will chime in (i am assuming you are familiar with & have already read our FAQ at the top of the page) 300+ whp can be accomplished on a GT28RS. Your goals of having boost at 3000rpm with "great top end" are not realistic. You aren't going to be making much power at 3000rpm even if you are hitting full boost by then. If you are on a stock block then a GT2871 is a good internally gated turbo that will produce a broad powerband early and not make too much peak HP. If you want to spend more money and have more top end then look into some of the GT30R's which are non-gated turbos. (some of them are, i think they are available in a 71 and 76)Then if you want to build your engine and go with a larger turbo and produce more high RPM power sure... but for a daily driver.... you could probably get 500whp out of a GT3076R. GT3076R info page |
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Hey , Yes I have read the FAQ many times and Iam no newbie but I aint a expert either, I am not saying full Boost at 3000rpm, what i mean is that theres some boost around 3500rpm. GT30R isnt that a bit too big?? I dont want 500whp thats insane for where i live and the uses i have for my car lolol, the power band iam looking for is 300whp to 350whp no more , i dont think i need anymore than that for daily driving in a start and stop traffic area and one in a while autoban in spain. The GT28RS seems to have a better powerband than the GT3071 thing is ive been looking at full race kitys at the GT kits Stage 1 and Stage with AC and stage one features GT28RS and the stage 2 features GT3071 I beleive, iam looking at somthing not laggy but that can with hold boost tille stock line. Youve got to admit looking at the GT28RS the torqure is excellent at low rpm on the stock gsr dyno shown at evans tuning itsl ike nearly 150wtq at around 3500 i beleive only at higher rev do u see the tq droping down, after reading some posts in honda tech apparently boost was falling off and also the clutch was slipping. Beside the GT28RS with the T3 housing does not use the internal wastegate *i think lol*, and I wont be using a internal wastegate ... external any day .Thanks for the help i'll still wait for Turbo charged opinion, any other opinions are welcome too... Siadam maybe you should have a go at this post as you at one time was looking for somthing similair.. Further NOTE: I will be runing 9:5:1 or 9:1 CR forged pistons and forged con rods and other minor mods such as block girdle,*mayb slighty upggraded valvetrain*, JE throttle body / GSR cams/Port Polish /i may go over bore, not sure cos i cant sleeve the block wud cost too much to ship to the US/Intake mainofld no idea yet..... before i was getting blox since i was going to use the VSC .. now i dunoo i might go with victor X or Full race intake manifold what ever is best . |
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gt30whatR? The 3030 (I suck with these names, sorry I'm too lazy to search it for you ) is available with the t28 exhaust housing iirc. |
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Quote: Funniest thing I have read in a while...you rip a$$holes for not searching....lol.. |
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Hmm T-Charged .. you must chil more man guess u must have loads of work. Post wen possible. |
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Quote: parasitic loss sucks the balls... small displacement and blower...bleh... |
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hey man i was slackass today too......i'll post pictures of what occupied my whole day though. tomarrow is friday and i have gotten a lot done in the past few days so i'll try to take a few min. to make some phone calls for ya. |
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+1 for the gt3076...quick spool and it's such an efficient turbo that it is fine for the 3-450 hp range. the gt28rs is a super quick spooler and is good for 3-350, but that is near it's limits and it will die out up top. That is why I suggest the gt30r spool is gonna be just a few hundred rpm later(depends on setup exactly) and it will carry to redline no prob. |
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Yeah the GT28RS seems so fast at spooling makes alot of torque very early in the power band but thats the thing i fear that at top end it dies Rember this need to be street driven and Iam definately not going over 350whp thats way fast for a car that wieghs nothing lolol. Anyways thanks for your opinion adam , when does the GT30r start spooling ? just a couple of hundred rpms only??? before the GT28RS?? anyways i will await T-charged response. Any another people experience with these turbos wud be appreicated dyno charts too |
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Dyno Charts. evans-tuning.com slowmotionmotorsports.com honda-tech.com |
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Ive been to evans tuning excellent site. But i havent seen a GT30R on a b16 yet...., Still waiting on T-charged input, Si Adam would you happen to know at wat rpm more or less does the GT30R starts to spool and hits full boost.. Iam askin just incase uve seen a dyno of it or ride in a Si with that turbo. |
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Gt30whatR? |
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http://www.slomomotorsports.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=59 360whp 12psi http://www.slomomotorsports.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=57 445whp 21psi This one has a odd spool up pattern...They also use a dynopak for their dyno, it will spool up much faster on the street. |
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Quote: Thanks Justin. I was to lazy to actually go find the links myself...lol.. |
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Nice , hmm still those are on b18s ... mines the b16 meaning spool up shoud take more the GT3076 is a GT30R? Iam sooo confused now lololol |
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Also T-Charged can u pm me regarding pricing of full race turbo kits |
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Can some explain the difference between the GT30R and the GT3076 and GT3071?? Iam really confused now.... and do these turbos spool up faster than the turbo that comes in Full race kit Stage 2 GT AC? |
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Quote: see siadam, parts review sticky would be awesome for something like this. |
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No, there should be no parts review to compare a gt3076 and a 3071, people should go learn what those numbers mean. |
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Quote: well then something to help learn the difference. after all, this site is to learn things too isn't it? |
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And just to let you know i have been searching , but still i havent found no wea wats the difference etc etc , beside this is a place to learn. |
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I got this response on evans tuning forums regarding choices of turbos.... "Id say a GT28rs or GT2817r would be your best choice. GT28rs will be a little less happy in the top end in comparison to the GT2817r. GT28rs is limited to roughly 350whp while the GT2817r can make closer to 450whp. Gives you a little more growing room. GT28rs will probably hit closer to your spool times than the GT2817r though. If I had to chose one, It would be the GT2817r. My gut feeling is when you spend money building an engine block you will get power hungry. GT2817r will give you more room for growth." What do you guys think? |
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yes...for sure. i havnt really dealt with any of the GT series turbos smaller than the 35R....but i know right off the bat the GTR series turbos are where its at....its all i want to use on my car from now on.....if you can affored it go for it. ALWAYS go with something a little larger than you want....just like you said you WILL want more power down the road! unless your set on the power goals you set i'd even consider the GT30R's.......i actually prefer a little bit of lag....and the whole "lag" thing is something you need to experiance first hand to understand that its not as bad as people make it out to be as long as you dont have like at PT70 on your car or something... the bigger GT28 is rated at 440 Flywheel horsepower...but the GT series turbo's are underrated.......keep in mind that if your going with a smaller turbo and want to make 350-400whp its going to take a lot of boost. thats the nicer part of going with a turbo thats slightly larger...you can make the same horsepower at lower boost levels which is better on pump gas. |
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So then the GT2817R should be the one to go for , I just want 300 - 350whp NOT BHP with a nice torque no laggy and good response but also top end I think this turbo seems well good for it. T-charged what psi you reckon I can manage the power goal?? i saw a GT28RS vs a GT3071 in full race site the dyno is hosted by evans tuning ... wow the torque is amazing and made more power/torque than the GT3071 everywhere i think this was at around 11psi on stock b18b only problem i think there was that the turbo doesnt produce power till the redline and i wud imagine even so on a b16 which revs higher. |
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not sure on PSI....i'd say just run a low boost setting of 10-12psi and then a "fun" setting at around 15psi on pump gas. should make the power your looking for no problems. |
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Would 9:5:1 CR forged piston and rods be capable of supporting that safely or shud i just go with 9:1 |
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i like compression with boost when on race gas.....but for a pump gas car i'd just stick to 9:1 |
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c0ol , if the extra Cr help alot i might stick a methanol/water injection thing. if not well i guess 9:1 is fine. |
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just stick to 9:1 |
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Quote: Yep. I don't mind lag @ all...makes the driving experience waay more fun...wait, wait....boom! I only have lag in 1st gear...after that it's practically instantanious. Lag is derived from people with little turbo's...... |
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Yeah i was thinking that once your in second or third gear you have exhuast gases flowing meaning the turbo is load dependent rite? so therefore in 3rd gear at 4,000rpms the load is greater meaning turbo should respond quicker .. i sure hope iam right lolol I will be sticking to 9:1 |
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Quote: Sorta. "Assuming" you are under WOT and in your gearing powerband, you will be in boost. 5k-9k is your range, the turbo will be kicking hard during that... But...if you are just tooling around and in 4th gear and punch it, it will stick take a few seconds to get going, or you may even need to downshift... You will see.... |
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heheh well atleast i got somethin more or less right lol, hopefully i wont wait a few seconds ... GT2871r should spool up before yours ..and ball bearing makes response much quicker, lets see what turbo i stick too... |
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boost response between shifts is much much much much greater with a ball bearing turbo too also....another thing i think is funny about the whole "lag" thing........ even with a small turbo....a lot of times the gauge will say 5psi or so but the car still isnt going anywhere.....like in 5th gear if you stomp it going up a hill......sure the car will make boost at a low rpm....but its not going anywhere...so who cares! you will be happy with the turbo you have selected |
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I think iam gonna stick with 9:5:1 aint that much of difference, if i feel the need to lower i could just get a thicker head gasket to help lower the CR a little more .the tuner iam getting is apparently very good, going with 9:5:1 will also help in down low response. i know what you mean the about the 5th gear, my cruising is mostly done in 4th gear and around 2400rpm 57km/h more or less.. remeber i live ina very small small town. use google earth and search gibraltar you can even see my house the roads even my car althought it just looks like a white blur lolol . finally .... I know this is may be a stupid question but no matter.. lol originally i was gonna go with 16" light weight rims cos i had the vortech ... now iam thinking ... more power better powerband more torque... 17" wud seem better at gripping right? and also i cud fit a nice four pot break kit under thea. |
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nah....you want a smaller wheel with a bigger tire for traction. the more sidewall the better. just like on slicks....we run 13 inch wheels with 24.5 inch tire. more sidewall = more traction. 9.5 compression will be fine, just leaves less room for tunning errors than a 9:1 piston |
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Just got response from evans tuning ... well one of the members he says that the GT28rs wud not die at top end on the b16... *roll eyes* rite.... then why does in every graph the torque and hp drop off at around 7500rpm. I ve also thought what you told me when earlier on i asked about the valvetrain.. i might just go with springs and up the rev limit to around 8800-9000rpm if still making power with the turbo i choose of course.. while geoff from full race recomends the AC GT 2 full race kit .. the turbo on that kit is a GT3037 .. choosing one seems to be tuff .. but the GT2871R should be in between those too i think.. iam not sure... anyways i will pm you my full setup and lets see. |
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me and geoff reccomended the same turbo.....thats kinda funny. jeff's car just made 790whp @ 44psi of boost with a GT40R. SSSSIIIIIICCCCKKKK |
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that's what I said...3037 or 3076.....if you get a gt28RS get the .82 housing and it prolly won't fall off so bad up top....that is what jeff evans uses on his road race car I believe. |
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I know that was awsome did you see the video??? the warning came up on the dyno due to the torque been exceeded hahahah. So you and geoff have talked then lolol |
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yea me and geoff talk pretty frequently. |
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mastrcobb sorry man i havent noticed your post till today lolol, would using there full race intake manifold help on the top end too? T-charged I Pm ed you regarding the setup lets see what the guru recommends, does anyone in this forum have full race GT AC klt stage 1 or 2 kits ??? |
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Quote: Of course their intake mani would help a alot over a stock peice,especially in the mid-top ranges. Cams would also allow the engine to breathe more smoothly near redline as well.. |
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I have GSR cams ready to put in.. actually i have to check if they are alright i rember complaining about somthing when i got them ... mental note must check cams ... see my mission is to make the car have quick spool and response but with top end too so iam tryin to match up componets to get my goals hopefully will see the end result in the coming months ahead. soo anyone??! .... in this forum have full race GT AC klt stage 1 or 2 kits ??? :| |
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*Bump* anyone ?? |
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