#2259148 - 01/24/08 07:09 PM
Our car is fast,but dont race it!
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progressi
Post Master Sr
Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 9133
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So Subaru runs ads of it's cars rallying,they gave away SCCA licenses with WRX's then warrantys were voided. We wont go there with fragged trannies.
Mitsu claims it's clutch smoking 0-60 times from mags,and offers an RS version of it's Evos for racing (implied),then maybe denies warranty (they issued a public statement against this)when someone is seen autocrossing.
Ive heard from the dealership that there are markings on the hardware on Evos so they can void you if there is "tampering". I know of the metal tags.
GM denies Fbody owner warranty when tire rubber is found under fender.
GM denies Solstice owner warranty (temporarily) because the car came in with SCCA stickers on it (LOL).
BMW denies warranty,even for it's unibody tearing (they offer a repair for it in Europe!)when an owner autocrosses.
So check out this Mini thread,which is the worst because Mini had an ad with cones that you pop out of the mag and place on a parking lot to make your own autocross,and even ran an ad with a championship autocrosser with his victory Mini.
http://sccaforums.com/forums/thread/280419.aspx
So you guys still believe in warrantys? Is it fun enough to just daily drive a performance car that can never be autocrossed,dragged or run at a track?
How good is a 300HP car in traffic that can only be run (carefully) up to speed at 70. There are always ways to sneak around and goof off,but tickets,and the resultant insurance from them can be a hefty price. Not to mention the risk of actually going off the road compared to spinning at an autocross or on the track.
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#2259184 - 01/24/08 07:18 PM
Re: Our car is fast,but dont race it!
[Re: progressi]
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progressi
Post Master Sr
Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 9133
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Surferjer: Lotus says right in their manual that to best appreciate the car's attributes, it should be driven on a track. Yet they voided my warranty on a synchro issue for autoxing. f*ckers.
I think if you buy a car and decide to autox, you are on your own for drivetrain issues. I know I basically don't have one, and that is that. But it pisses me off when they encourage you to participate in any form of motorsports and then f*ck you over when you do. The fact that Mini has a motorsports division is encouragement to participate. How many f*cking Minis do you think you've sold for them? Probably quite a few
You can add Lotus to the list,LOL.
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#2259360 - 01/24/08 08:04 PM
Re: Our car is fast,but dont race it!
[Re: ResisterGo]
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theLoon
Post Master Sr
Registered: 01/06/03
Posts: 3275
Loc: MN
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Well, it's exceedingly lame for manufacturers to advertise products based on their "racing pedigree" or capabilities, if they're not going to support folks involved in sanctioned racing. If manufacturers put resources into supporting grassroots racing, instead of paying lawyers to figure out how to screw their customers over, it'd probably be a wash.
That said, I also think it's idiotic for owners of warrantied vehicles to track their cars. Right, wrong or indifferent, you're still taking a huge risk. And at the end of the day, you have to pay to play. There's street cars and there's track cars. If you can't figure out the fucking difference, it's your responsibility to foot the bill when shit goes south.
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#2259367 - 01/24/08 08:08 PM
Re: Our car is fast,but dont race it!
[Re: beerslurpy]
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theLoon
Post Master Sr
Registered: 01/06/03
Posts: 3275
Loc: MN
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Autocross and track days aren't much more strenuous than spirited road driving. I dunno about that. I think if that were true, it'd be relatively cheap and easy to get "autocross insurance" or "track day insurance".
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#2260104 - 01/24/08 11:56 PM
Re: Our car is fast,but dont race it!
[Re: RacerXI]
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progressi
Post Master Sr
Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 9133
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LOL,I dont know if you guys read the whole thing,but a Lotus guy mentioned that the dealer checked the ECU and found "several launches with wheelspin",and several trips to 8500 which meant alot of "missed shifts",so they were going to deny his warranty.
Wow.
Ive seen some shady stuff on EvoM,where a kid claimed he had a defective piston just crack on his Evo,then others found posts where he was modding his car,then asking why it blew up,turned out he leaned out and cracked a ring land. Dude was making a huge stink online.
So yeah,thats one side,but some of this stuff is pretty bad. I agree with Beer,I dunno about track days,but autocross seems pretty tame.
I thought Id put a clutch in my Evo when I had it,because they are like a fuse for the newbs,but the idea that I could void the entire warranty because they found a bolt had been removed is pretty hairball.
There's a friend of a friend that had a blown STI 2.5,dealer told him the oil consumption was normal,kept giving him the runaround,finally,they found he had replaced a factory bolt on the exhaust with one from the hardware store. Black listed. He spent 10,000 after that.
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#2260498 - 01/25/08 03:13 AM
Re: Our car is fast,but dont race it!
[Re: progressi]
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theraven
Poster
Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 283
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If you read the last page of that thread, it looks like it got cleared up in the end.
This particular case was messed up and I would be pissed if it happened to me, but I can't say I blame some of the companies from being such pricks. People are trying to commit fraud all the time by modding something beyond their knowledge, end up blowing something up, then de-mod it and try crawl back to the dealer for a free fix. Then companies try to crack down and end up overcompensating and piss off owners that actually weren't trying to defraud them.
I imagine it is a hard balance to strike between handing out engines/trans like candy to morons defrauding them and being pricks by denying warranties for minor mods or autox. It is made worse by the moronic dealerships and layers of managers that come into play and cause misunderstandings and poor communication.
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#2260675 - 01/25/08 07:59 AM
Re: Our car is fast,but dont race it!
[Re: theraven]
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FCobra94
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 10/22/01
Posts: 19689
Loc: MD
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People are trying to commit fraud all the time by modding something beyond their knowledge, end up blowing something up, then de-mod it and try crawl back to the dealer for a free fix. Then companies try to crack down and end up overcompensating and piss off owners that actually weren't trying to defraud them. Yeah, that's the problem right there. It's funny that you mentioned the moronic managers though; I cringe at the fact that I have to do my own homework and then school the people at the dealership on how to fix my car before it properly gets taken care of.
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#2260816 - 01/25/08 09:08 AM
Re: Our car is fast,but dont race it!
[Re: Adam G]
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LNXGUY
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 08/06/00
Posts: 106974
Loc: Barrie, Ont,
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What a bunch of bullshit. "Our cars will do this, and we'll use that aspect to sell as many as we can, but if YOU do what we did to sell you the car, your warranty is void"
How the fuck can that even be legal.
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#2260836 - 01/25/08 09:15 AM
Re: Our car is fast,but dont race it!
[Re: RiceEater T/A]
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blueSIguy
Post Master Sr
Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 3950
Loc: NE
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It depends alot on the dealer.
No doubt, we have GM dealer in town that has amazing service while the others get caught not rotating tires but still charging people.
Mitsu has always been a joke so no surprise there, and Subaru's while normally reliable also have poor service ratings in my area.
Look at the other ads on TV especially the "diet" ones, you don't have to be accountable for what is said in ads no matter if its a car or a pill.
Buyer Beware
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#2260842 - 01/25/08 09:16 AM
Re: Our car is fast,but dont race it!
[Re: LNXGUY]
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Dan Smith
Post Master Jr
Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 1921
Loc: Land of Ahs
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What a bunch of bullshit. "Our cars will do this, and we'll use that aspect to sell as many as we can, but if YOU do what we did to sell you the car, your warranty is void"
How the fuck can that even be legal.
Unfortunately, Adam could probably explain to you in detail how alot of this is perfectly legal. I do believe the magnusson-moss act could have saved the Subaru guy with the different bolt in the exhaust, but maybe not. These warranty deals are like the car commercials that show Nissans doing J-turns and at the bottom of the screen the small print of course says, "Professional driver on closed course. Do not attempt on public roads."
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#2262074 - 01/25/08 03:15 PM
Re: Our car is fast,but dont race it!
[Re: Adam G]
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allan r
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 15724
Loc: the land of cheese
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As a matter of contract law, the manufacturers are right for denying the warranty claims.
However, this smells like some sort of viable class action lawsuit under consumer fraud law, i.e. advertising particular merits of your product and then voiding the warranty when the customer uses it accordingly.
I disagree with the second part. This is an extremely fine line to walk, both on the consumer side and the mfg side. On the one hand, the mfg builds a fun car and advertizes it as such. Ok fine.
(Not to point a finger directly at the MINI guy; that guy being sponsored should probably have had more support. But to use him as a general example): So the customer beats his gearbox to shit on the autocross course and expects a warranty claim. Warranty covers manufacturer defects in material and installation period. Alot of drivers, and you all have seen them, beat the living hell out of their cars sometimes, trying to get that extra .10th or just being a dumbass, and now the mfg has to start walking that line of defect vs abuse. You CAN race your car without abusing it but we all know so many people do it.
Eventually they get pre-emptive and deny claims just for evidence of abuse (like tire wear) or even evidence of participation. Advertizing your car implying intent for light competition use does not in any way shape or form give the customer the right to use that advertizing for justification on how he abused his gearbox/redline/etc etc and broke something. You CAN race your car without abusing it.
to bring it back to Subaru in 2001-2002, when they gave out that 1-yr SCCA membership, they were most likely jumping the gun in many cases. I had a guy tell me that the regional Subaru rep was writing down VIN's at a Milwaukee SCCA event. THAT might fall under Adam's proposed class-action suit, since people's warranties were getting voided before they even made a claim.
Its a super fine line. Both sides have their justifications but the mfg's hold the power so all we can do is protect ourselves best we can. I might just take down my track vids from youtube.
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#2262417 - 01/25/08 05:07 PM
Re: Our car is fast,but dont race it!
[Re: beerslurpy]
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Nealoc187
<3
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 05/07/01
Posts: 32535
Loc: Lisle, IL formerly Kalamazoo, ...
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track days aren't much more strenuous than spirited road driving
I agree with most of what you said, but this made chuckle. When I do track days and HPDEs, I'm driving a FUCKLOAD harder than I've ever driven on the street. I've never gone through a set of pads and rotors in a day on the street, nor put significant wear on a set of tires in a day on the street.
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#2262778 - 01/25/08 07:33 PM
Re: Our car is fast,but dont race it!
[Re: danl]
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progressi
Post Master Sr
Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 9133
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Ouch! Id never bring anything to Jiffy lube. I had a friend take his brand new Camaro to Jiffy lube, he left a huge oil stain all the way out of the car onto the street,drove a block when the oil light came on. They told him his car was fine,even though it drove a block without oil!
They screwed the filter on over the old gasket!
It truly does depend on the dealer,my dealership said if they put the aftermarket clutch in for me,they'd warranty it.
I had an experience like one mentioned above. My cousin brought his Evo into a dealership thanks to a weird noise (I told you about that one Dan),and I heard "as long as it's not modded" like 5 times before they even agreed to look at it. Until we totally calmed them down,they wanted labor up front to look at his warrantied,completely stock car.
I know the shop foreman at this place,and he said that all Evos have to be approved for drivetrain diagnosis after a customer got away with a free engine. He brought it in for a second motor and the factory rep found direct port nitrous taps in the manifold!
For the record,it's true (I read the whole thing later) that the Mini guy got hooked up,but imagine if someone didnt know that motorsports guy he did. They'd be done.
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#2262815 - 01/25/08 07:57 PM
Re: Our car is fast,but dont race it!
[Re: danl]
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Noob4Life
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 26653
Loc: IL, USA
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there like labor, and they replaced various gaskets and filters. For some reason, the fucking thermostat was $75. Does the Evo has some sort of ultra-mega-super thermostat? the service guy spotted it and got the charge reduced to a more reasonable $28 or something.
edit: this service wasn't covered under my warranty so I paid for it all out of pocket. which sucked major asshole..
Edited by Noob4Life (01/25/08 07:58 PM)
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#2262821 - 01/25/08 07:59 PM
Re: Our car is fast,but dont race it!
[Re: danl]
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progressi
Post Master Sr
Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 9133
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$489 IS BULLSHIT. Its $70/case for 3 tx/rear flushes. $9/quart (3 quarts per tranny flush). Mobil1/OEM filter $25. Crazy thing is,alot of dealerships dont even use Diaqueen for the trannys,Dan! So you're often getting charged what noob did for off the Autozone shelf Valvoline!
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#2263421 - 01/26/08 02:35 AM
Re: Our car is fast,but dont race it!
[Re: danl]
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progressi
Post Master Sr
Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 9133
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Why are you getting a thermostat on a new evo? Mitsu prices have always been totally reasonable to me. Heck,a brand new Jatco CVT trans for our Outlander is 2k in the crate.
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#2263742 - 01/26/08 11:47 AM
Re: Our car is fast,but dont race it!
[Re: Nealoc187]
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beerslurpy
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 05/04/02
Posts: 15480
Loc: Spring Hill, FL
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track days aren't much more strenuous than spirited road driving I agree with most of what you said, but this made chuckle. When I do track days and HPDEs, I'm driving a FUCKLOAD harder than I've ever driven on the street. I've never gone through a set of pads and rotors in a day on the street, nor put significant wear on a set of tires in a day on the street.
I think I should have been clearer, but this reinforces my point- your drivetrain isn't a wear item unless you are using the clutch in place of your brake pads.
edit: I can see anyone having brake or tire issues at a track day. However, the only people who should be having drivetrain issues at a track day are people who have modified their cars and not upgraded clutch/trans/cooling/etc to compensate for the increased strain. A car, especially a car with a 50 or 100k drivetrain warranty is supposed to be able to be driven hard without breaking. All of the drivetrain parts should be engineered to take the rated power of the car for years at a time without wearing out. I can understand if the oil gets overheated or if the coolant boils over and the owner keeps driving, but especially a sports car should anticipate that this might happen and have overheat safeguards in place or at least a buzzer/CEL.
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#2263785 - 01/26/08 12:09 PM
Re: Our car is fast,but dont race it!
[Re: danl]
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Noob4Life
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 26653
Loc: IL, USA
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Mitsu thermostats are the best quality t-stats I've ever seen. I love them and will only use them. Still why is the dealership replacing a stat on his new evo? I've never actually seen an OEM t-stat fail but I'd imagine you would have to stick around for 10 years and 150,000 miles before doing so.
<--- typical uneducated consumer
I only requested the fluids to be changed, no gaskets or t-stats, but if dude came over and said "Hey gaskets and the t-stat are part of normal maintenance" I would have accepted that. Live and learn.
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