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#2421032 - 03/10/08 04:08 PM Discuss: ECOTEC
Moof Offline
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Let's talk about GM's infamous ECOTEC engine. Is it the 4-cyninder 'big block' of today? Is it a technological marvel? ..or do you think it's just a crappy GM motor that is riddled with problems?

Good stories, bad stories, story stories.



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#2421044 - 03/10/08 04:12 PM Re: Discuss: ECOTEC [Re: Moof]
Z24 lol Offline
and Fuck you for the new name lol
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ECOTEC engines are stout for what they are.

They are usually what are found in turbo saabs.


Edited by HoustonRSX (03/10/08 04:23 PM)

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#2421070 - 03/10/08 04:16 PM Re: Discuss: ECOTEC [Re: Z24 lol]
Euphoricuck Offline
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just keep your damn subaru
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#2421137 - 03/10/08 04:36 PM Re: Discuss: ECOTEC [Re: Euphoricuck]
neonmike22 Offline
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It's a great motor waiting for an outstanding chassis.
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#2421147 - 03/10/08 04:37 PM Re: Discuss: ECOTEC [Re: neonmike22]
Z24 lol Offline
and Fuck you for the new name lol
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 Originally Posted By: neonmike22
It's a great motor waiting for an outstanding chassis.


It is in the solistice and saturn model. Also the new SS turbo cobalt is suppose to have alot better chassis dynamics.

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#2421367 - 03/10/08 05:12 PM Re: Discuss: ECOTEC [Re: Moof]
vwkaferman Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Moof
Is it the 4-cyninder 'big block' of today?


Wouldn't the SRT-4 motor be more of the 4 cylinder big block? I'd think so as stout as it is. I could be wrong, I don't know much about the GM Eco, just going off what I think I know. Awesome!

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#2421399 - 03/10/08 05:21 PM Re: Discuss: ECOTEC [Re: vwkaferman]
Impulsive Offline
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It's a completely average 4 cylinder. Almost every single manufacturer has a mediocre strength, 1.8-2.4 liter engine making somewhere in the 140-170 hp range.
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#2421639 - 03/10/08 06:02 PM Re: Discuss: ECOTEC [Re: Impulsive]
Moof Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Impulsive
It's a completely average 4 cylinder. Almost every single manufacturer has a mediocre strength, 1.8-2.4 liter engine making somewhere in the 140-170 hp range.


It's also handled 400whp with just Cam gears and LSJ connectiong rods/pistons. That's damn tough if you ask me. Like, B-series tough.
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#2421697 - 03/10/08 06:15 PM Re: Discuss: ECOTEC [Re: Moof]
UglyValiant Offline
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stories about it's greatness are generally vastly exagerated. It's not ubber-weak, nor is it ubber strong. It doesn't have great heads, but they aren't bad heads either. It isn't ubber trick, nor is it a relic. It's just there. Keeping the space under the hood and b/w the firewall and front fascia filled as to keep it from looking stupid. It also gives the radiator something to do and provides heat for the interior.

About the only thing that is amazing is it's average-ness, and how it turns dumb-@$$ blind fanboi's into weeping dumb-@$$ blind fanboi's.

From a reliability standpoint, it's not horrid.
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#2421919 - 03/10/08 07:09 PM Re: Discuss: ECOTEC [Re: UglyValiant]
orangegrey Offline
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I was working at Saturn when they introduced it in the L Series and Vue. The technicians seemed to like it and we never had any major problems that I can recall. Much better than the old 1.9 liter, but in hindsight maybe that's not saying much.
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#2422191 - 03/10/08 07:55 PM Re: Discuss: ECOTEC [Re: orangegrey]
NOT spotch... Offline
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I will say I had an Ion Rental about 9~ months ago and I beat some guy in a modified base RSX that couldn't drive from stoplight-to-stoplight. The NA engine isn't bad but it has a bit of vibration to it that I hadn't seen since the neon days. *very* reminiscent of my neon engine, although stock for stock it sounded better at high rpms lol not saying anything at all.


Keep in mind with the cobalt, no matter how much of a deal you get, unless you put like 80% of the value down you're probably going to end up upside down on it. The resale isn't super strong on GM's entry level, even if it is way better than the cavalier. Aside from owning a new car at bargain basement prices (which is kinda cool, in its own way...) I see no really compelling reason to buy a cobalt.

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#2423067 - 03/10/08 11:08 PM Re: Discuss: ECOTEC [Re: NOT spotch...]
Quad4_driver Offline
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In stock form its not amazingly tough , GM says that the LSJ is only really safe to about 300hp on the stock rods and pistons. The block it self is fairly impressive. Heads like ugly says are nothing great, infact one of the engines it replaced had a better head.

With easily sourced parts it becomes a much more capable motor ,although you prolly wont make 1000hp like GM has with them.

the N/A ones are a pretty average engine, although the 2.4L does not get the best milage. I would like GM to make an under square version high N/A HP version and put it in a soltice.

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#2423233 - 03/11/08 12:03 AM Re: Discuss: ECOTEC [Re: Moof]
progressi Offline
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The new Ecotech turbo with a twin scroll turbo and direct injection on paper looks great. It's in the Solstice and the Sky,which (maybe cheating?) dominated the competition at the runoffs.

What I thought was cool was that GM went ahead and paved the way for the enthusiast by writing the book for the tuner to get to whatever hp level they want to achieve.

http://www.gmtunersource.com

Maybe it is hype,but it seemed impressive when it first came out,not 4G impressive,but maybe SRT-4 or SR20 impressive. ;\)

Here's a cool exerpt from a search I just did:
 Quote:

chuckspeed01-27-2006, 07:11 AM
Re: ecotec 4 cylinder...

It's an interesting motor.

Engine architecture is very good - I've spent a fair amount of time looking at the various pieces/parts as they're made. Block and head are both aluminum alloy, which eliminates the differentials in coefficients of thermal expansion that caused the Quad 4 to spit head gaskets out. Complete assembly is cast via the lost foam process up in Massena NY; a lost foam motor exhibits high dimensional stability during the pour, which allows the engineers to build in strength without sacrificing weight.

Bottom end on these little guys is stout as hell - it's a deep skirt block. I don't recall if the bearing caps are crossbolted or not - I think they are, but then again, most alloy motors these days have crossbolted mains. The basic design of the bottom end lends itself to high rev, forced induction apps with minimal modification.

Top end looks like someone lifted a page from the Universal Japanese Motorcyle handbook - 4v head with good breathing characteristics designed in right off the bat.

Bone stock normally aspirated Solstices and the soon-to-be-released Saturn Sky's come with 177 HP, which is pretty much what you'd expect these days. The supercharged eco's are at 205 HP with *very* mild boost; the turbo'd units (scheduled for release late this year, BTW) are rated at 270 HP as someone mentioned earlier.

Do keep in mind that speedparts follow an inverse curve when it comes to pricing. First few years they're really expensive...when there's enough demand for the parts, the cost comes down. First sets of alloy V8 heads were shockingly expensive (if y'all recall) and now a nice set of alloy SBC heads can be bought new for about $1200.

Rate limiting event on Eco's when it comes to HP is gonna be forced induction - if you wanna go fast with one, it's gonna hafta have a blower or a turbo. The hot setups will be judged on how much boost they make - the goal most guys will try to break the 30 PSI mark on the street. If you figure the motor makes 200HP lightly modded, a 30 PSI motor will make *about* 600 HP.


That was from some apparent hot rod site: http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-66691.html

And btw,do a search about the upcoming turbo Cobalt SS,supposedly dominated Nurburgring times by a huge margin for FWD sport compacts.

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#2423247 - 03/11/08 12:06 AM Re: Discuss: ECOTEC [Re: Moof]
progressi Offline
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Apparently,you can download lots of GM proferred race research done on their cars here:
http://tunersource.gmblogs.com/Racer-Tech/ECOtec-LSJ-Build-Book

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#2423286 - 03/11/08 12:15 AM Re: Discuss: ECOTEC [Re: Moof]
Impulsive Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Moof

It's also handled 400whp with just Cam gears and LSJ connectiong rods/pistons. That's damn tough if you ask me. Like, B-series tough.


Even Zetec's and QR25's can do that. Almost any 4 cyl out there can swap rods, pistons, use the stock crank/cams and make 350-400WH with boost and good tuning.

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#2423352 - 03/11/08 12:33 AM Re: Discuss: ECOTEC [Re: Impulsive]
progressi Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Impulsive
 Originally Posted By: Moof

It's also handled 400whp with just Cam gears and LSJ connectiong rods/pistons. That's damn tough if you ask me. Like, B-series tough.


Even Zetec's and QR25's can do that. Almost any 4 cyl out there can swap rods, pistons, use the stock crank/cams and make 350-400WH with boost and good tuning.

But Nurburgring smasher of FWD cars, Brembos,Direct Injection,Twin scroll turbo,No lift shifting from the factory,bitchen seats.ahahhahahhah!
 Quote:


and a quote from someone who claims to have driven one...


"the boost comes on at 2300 just like it has been stated in the writeup's on it and it pulls....HARD! The car has very quick turning ratio, it makes my brother's LS feel like a 1980 BOAT full sizer GM put out then whereas the turbo feels more like a Vette: quick and nimble. The no lift shift feature actually works pretty well and DOES shave time off your shifting (assuming no mis-shift) and the launch control/competitive mode does exist and its the button to the right of the steering wheel on teh silver trim piece.

Brake pedal feel was somewhat firm with feedback, I haven't used it repeatedly so I cannot judge fade or mushiness after prolonged use, but its a brembo, highly doubtful any negatives.

The car is just phenominal, the seats hold well, they're ultralux suede material and the drivers seat has a bolster, rear seats also get this insert material. Good support in the front seats too."

JMO

CobaltSS



JK dude,but sometimes it's hard not to get caught up in the new car hype.

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#2424091 - 03/11/08 09:10 AM Re: Discuss: ECOTEC [Re: progressi]
Impulsive Offline
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The new turbo is nice from the engine standpoint, it's too bad it has to go in the Cobalt with much of a refresh. Then again, with the Caliber SRT-4 being a bit of a let down, the MS3 aging and the GTi/Si/Spec V not matching the performance, it's a decent option.

But the base Ecotec...well you could look at almost every car from a Focus, to a Sentra to a Civic to a Lancer to a Caliber to an Elantra and find similar base engines in output and strength.
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#2424178 - 03/11/08 09:42 AM Re: Discuss: ECOTEC [Re: Impulsive]
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I think you'd have to be crazy to choose a caliber over an ms3/gti based on anything but GM's crazy rebates. Even if you're not interested in handling those other two are quite a bit nicer overall based on the Cobalt SS a guy I worked with got a year ago and the one I sat in at the auto show. I mean the souped up cobalt is head and shoulders above the z24 it replaces but the rest of the competition is just made up of nicer cars. It does have price going for it, at least usually...
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#2424203 - 03/11/08 09:50 AM Re: Discuss: ECOTEC [Re: NOT spotch...]
Impulsive Offline
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Remember, some people value performance over being nice.

My Spec V was "nicer" than my SRT-4, but it didn't hold a candle to the performance. Obviously, I'm not the same buyer as I was when I had time to race and mod, but the Cobalt will be about bang for the buck performance.
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#2424686 - 03/11/08 11:54 AM Re: Discuss: ECOTEC [Re: Impulsive]
CommonGutterTrash Offline
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the 2.3L T7(saab) Ecotec motor had glass pistons that couldn't handle much over 300HP

This COULD be because saab tuners are F'ng idiots, and tune to ridiculous EGTs using stock (tiny) turbos and crappy exhaust manifolds....
But it could also be shallow ring lands. ( I never cared enough to research it)

The motor seems pretty stout, but I can't see how it'd be any stronger than the srt4/EVO motor.
As someone stated, GM has published a how-to to build a 1kHP ecotec with off-the-shelf parts. (THAT'S worth something to me)
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#2424819 - 03/11/08 12:35 PM Re: Discuss: ECOTEC [Re: UglyValiant]
Mr. Knowitall. Offline
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 Originally Posted By: UglyValiant
stories about it's greatness are generally vastly exagerated. It's not ubber-weak, nor is it ubber strong. It doesn't have great heads, but they aren't bad heads either. It isn't ubber trick, nor is it a relic. It's just there. Keeping the space under the hood and b/w the firewall and front fascia filled as to keep it from looking stupid. It also gives the radiator something to do and provides heat for the interior.

About the only thing that is amazing is it's average-ness, and how it turns dumb-@$$ blind fanboi's into weeping dumb-@$$ blind fanboi's.

From a reliability standpoint, it's not horrid.


The people that were making 800+whp on Honda's when the cobalt SS came out have been raving about this motor, and it's head.
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#2425564 - 03/11/08 03:56 PM Re: Discuss: ECOTEC [Re: Impulsive]
Euphoricuck Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Impulsive
Remember, some people value performance over being nice.

My Spec V was "nicer" than my SRT-4, but it didn't hold a candle to the performance. Obviously, I'm not the same buyer as I was when I had time to race and mod, but the Cobalt will be about bang for the buck performance.



id say the only thing it has on say the gti or Si is straight line speed. handling/grip/braking/and feel is probably better on the other two. theres more to performance than just straight line speed.
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#2425569 - 03/11/08 03:56 PM Re: Discuss: ECOTEC [Re: Mr. Knowitall.]
Euphoricuck Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Mr. Knowitall.
 Originally Posted By: UglyValiant
stories about it's greatness are generally vastly exagerated. It's not ubber-weak, nor is it ubber strong. It doesn't have great heads, but they aren't bad heads either. It isn't ubber trick, nor is it a relic. It's just there. Keeping the space under the hood and b/w the firewall and front fascia filled as to keep it from looking stupid. It also gives the radiator something to do and provides heat for the interior.

About the only thing that is amazing is it's average-ness, and how it turns dumb-@$$ blind fanboi's into weeping dumb-@$$ blind fanboi's.

From a reliability standpoint, it's not horrid.


The people that were making 800+whp on Honda's when the cobalt SS came out have been raving about this motor, and it's head.


where abouts was this raving taking place?
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#2426649 - 03/11/08 10:05 PM Re: Discuss: ECOTEC [Re: Euphoricuck]
Quad4_driver Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Euphoric
[quote=Impulsive]Remember, some people value performance over being nice.

My Spec V was "nicer" than my SRT-4, but it didn't hold a candle to the performance. Obviously, I'm not the same buyer as I was when I had time to race and mod, but the Cobalt will be about bang for the buck performance.



Suposeidly the new one is pretty good in the twisty department.

Oh and lots of honda guys have given respect to what the ecotec can do.

id say the only thing it has on say the gti or Si is straight line speed. handling/grip/braking/and feel is probably better on the other two. theres more to performance than just straight line speed.


Edited by Quad4_driver (03/11/08 10:06 PM)

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#2426664 - 03/11/08 10:09 PM Re: Discuss: ECOTEC [Re: Impulsive]
NOT spotch... Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Impulsive
Remember, some people value performance over being nice.

My Spec V was "nicer" than my SRT-4, but it didn't hold a candle to the performance. Obviously, I'm not the same buyer as I was when I had time to race and mod, but the Cobalt will be about bang for the buck performance.




Since when does the cobalt perform better than the ms3!?

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#2426673 - 03/11/08 10:11 PM Re: Discuss: ECOTEC [Re: Quad4_driver]
NOT spotch... Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Quad4_driver
 Originally Posted By: Euphoric
[quote=Impulsive]Remember, some people value performance over being nice.

My Spec V was "nicer" than my SRT-4, but it didn't hold a candle to the performance. Obviously, I'm not the same buyer as I was when I had time to race and mod, but the Cobalt will be about bang for the buck performance.



Suposeidly the new one is pretty good in the twisty department.

Oh and lots of honda guys have given respect to what the ecotec can do.

id say the only thing it has on say the gti or Si is straight line speed. handling/grip/braking/and feel is probably better on the other two. theres more to performance than just straight line speed.



Nice post, evenhanded.

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#2426679 - 03/11/08 10:13 PM Re: Discuss: ECOTEC [Re: NOT spotch...]
Z24 lol Offline
and Fuck you for the new name lol
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 Originally Posted By: spotch
 Originally Posted By: Impulsive
Remember, some people value performance over being nice.

My Spec V was "nicer" than my SRT-4, but it didn't hold a candle to the performance. Obviously, I'm not the same buyer as I was when I had time to race and mod, but the Cobalt will be about bang for the buck performance.




Since when does the cobalt perform better than the ms3!?


The SS version with 260HP will most likely outperform the MS3. Of course this is just going off HP/Weight figures.

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#2426687 - 03/11/08 10:17 PM Re: Discuss: ECOTEC [Re: NOT spotch...]
Euphoricuck Offline
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err his post contains half my post
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#2426693 - 03/11/08 10:18 PM Re: Discuss: ECOTEC [Re: Euphoricuck]
Z24 lol Offline
and Fuck you for the new name lol
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I am just wondering how long it will take Nissan/Honda to realize they need a turbo powered car to compete.

Its a shame nissan couldve hit a home run with the spec-v if they just put the sr20DET in it.

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#2426699 - 03/11/08 10:20 PM Re: Discuss: ECOTEC [Re: Z24 lol]
Euphoricuck Offline
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 Originally Posted By: HoustonRSX
I am just wondering how long it will take Nissan/Honda to realize they need a turbo powered car to compete.



but do they really? People will still buy the cars....and the new engines respond quite well to bolt ons and a reflash.
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#2426703 - 03/11/08 10:21 PM Re: Discuss: ECOTEC [Re: Euphoricuck]
Z24 lol Offline
and Fuck you for the new name lol
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 Originally Posted By: Euphoric
 Originally Posted By: HoustonRSX
I am just wondering how long it will take Nissan/Honda to realize they need a turbo powered car to compete.



but do they really? People will still buy the cars....and the new engines respond quite well to bolt ons and a reflash.


Stock for stock and mod for mod a factory F/I car will always perform better.

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#2426722 - 03/11/08 10:26 PM Re: Discuss: ECOTEC [Re: Z24 lol]
NOT spotch... Offline
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Meh, I think it adds a little spice to the lineup. I mean FI is great and all but if every sport compact on the market is a turbo 2.0-2.4 it's a little redundant, no? I don't know that I personally would buy an Si but at least the option's out there... they seem to be somewhat popular around here.
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#2426737 - 03/11/08 10:28 PM Re: Discuss: ECOTEC [Re: NOT spotch...]
Z24 lol Offline
and Fuck you for the new name lol
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 Originally Posted By: spotch
Meh, I think it adds a little spice to the lineup. I mean FI is great and all but if every sport compact on the market is a turbo 2.0-2.4 it's a little redundant, no? I don't know that I personally would buy an Si but at least the option's out there... they seem to be somewhat popular around here.


Ok so than when all were n/a it wasnt redundant? The new Si/Spec-v/and to an extent the GTI are outclassed by better options if you are looking for a sporty compact car.

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#2426743 - 03/11/08 10:30 PM Re: Discuss: ECOTEC [Re: NOT spotch...]
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ECOTEC Power from GM

"Birth of the Ultimate Import Fighter?"

GM Racing"s 747-horse 2.0L I4 ECOTEC Turbo Drag Engine

At some point General Motors became aware that there is a thing called "Import Performance," which has postively shaken the entire performance market. GM, for obvious reasons, likes to call this phenomenon "FWD Performance." Eventually, someone at GM realized the company had a new engine called the Ecotec that -- with a few "cheap" tricks--had the potential to beguile a few folks currently exclusively in love with certain Japanese and European Import Performers. GM scraped together little money and threw it at a small team of experienced racers and engine builders at skunkworks in Southern California with the goal of ascertaining what a 2.2-liter Ecotec could do if you whipped it good.

"The request was for 800 hp in four months in an engine that would live for 20 - 40 drag runs," says Stephen Bothwell, who came in from the cold to lead GM's Ecotec Drag Engine project after 2.5 years on the road racing GM's Vortec 4200 in-line six in rally trucks playing the roads and non-roads of places like Baja, Mexico. "The attitude early on in some quarters," says Bothwell, "was people laughed at the idea of a 700-hp Ecotec. But that was then."

Bothwell began by scoping out what sort of power and torque would be required to get people's attention in the "FWD Performance" world, and followed up on that with a crash program to push the envelope of an Ecotec. Hard.

The GM Racing team set about to find the outer limits of an Ecotec the old fashioned way--by progressively blowing more nitrous through it on an engine dyno until something broke. Then repairing the engine with stronger parts (sending any damaged parts to a lab for forensic analysis), and pushing on until the next weakest link died and went to Hell. And so on.

Quest for Failure: Nitrous

With this in mind, GM Racing bolted a factory-stock Ecotec to an engine dyno and wired up a DFI/Accel programmable engine management system to control it via a data link connected to a laptop computer with Windows-based graphical user interface.

The team then constructed a custom three-stage nitrous system designed to spray a cold fog of nitrous into the Ecotec at a single point near the throttle body, delivering additional fuel to match the oxytgen-enriched air via increased pulsewidth from the stock electronic fuel injectors. [that's a dry nitrous system for anyone that wants to know]

GM Racing began the tuning process on a Heinen-Freud water-brake dyno using the stock intake and exhaust manifolds and a modified stock downpipe plumbed without muffler directly into the dyno cell's exhaust removal system. It turns out a well-tuned stock 10:1 2.2-liter Ecotec in the above configuration actually develops 168 crankshaft hp (which is above the factory rating of 140-150 as installed in various vehicles in the United States and Europe).

At this point, the team began to pump up the volume in a rigouous series of tests while a crew stood by with fire extinguishers. Testing at a given power level colcluded when the engine could survive a series of 8-10 full-power dyno "Sprints" from peak torque through maximum power in 50 rpm steps, colcluding with at least six seconds at full power, for a total of at least 20 very hard seconds. GM Racing successively verified the Ecotec survived happily at 200, 225 and250 hp over numerous dyno pulls.

However, as the Ecotec pushed through 283 hp at 4400 rpm, all four connecting rods simultaneously failed catastrophically and smashed through the side of the block. Laboratory analysis subsequently revealed a mid-beam compression fracture on all four stock powder-metal rods. All other components checked out fine. GM Racing installed a package of components you'd certainly install if you were taking the trouble to open an engine to upgrade the connecting rods: Super-duty forged Crower X-beam rods--plus 10:1 JE forged pistons with thicker top ring lands and Hastings moly ring packs. The GM Racing team installed larger fuel injectors, and continued lean on the engine. Power quickly advanced to 350 hp, at which point the engine ran out of breathing room on the exhaust side. The ration of Reactants (exhaust) to Products (inlet charge) is very high on a nitrous motor. GM Racing found the stock Ecotec exzhaust manifold became sufficiently restrictive above 350-hp that injudiciously adding more nitrous could actually make less horsepower--due to dramatically decreased efficiencies in scavenging exhaust gases from the combusion chamber clearance volume. "We finally made 370-375 hp on nitrous," says Bothwell, "but the engine was really pissed off."

**Building the Turbo Ecotec**

At this point, GM Racing abandoned nitrous, built an efficient turbo Ecotec, and pushed on with the business of making power. The strategy was, make it efficient from Day One, then turn up the revs and boost. Bothwell's goal: 10,000 rpm and 800 hp.

"We knew the stock crank would need replacing by 500 hp," says Bothwell. "Since we were going to need the rev capability, breathing and rod-stroke ratio of a square bore-stroke engine, we had Crower build a de-stroked forged billet 2.0-liter crankshaft and used it immediately from 350-hp." Newk, larger 4143 7/16-inch main studs replaced the head bolts to hold the new crank firmly in place.

The GM Team designed a tube-type stainless header fabricated to optimize the collection of exhaust pulses in the correct order to minimize collisions. With plenty of boost, the GM team knew the stock scroll-type plastic intake manifold could flow sufficient air to 500 hp. Since the goal was way beyond 500 hp, they fabricated an aluminum, straight-port dry intake manifold with high-volume plenum for the turbo Ecotec. To regulate big air flow, GM Racing pilfered the throttle body from an LS1 V8.

GM Racing designed the turbo system around an advanced innovative Turbo turbocharger with plenty of part to upgrade and tweak performance as required, plus a huge waste-gate and pulse-modulated electronic controller. The GM team fabricated a gigantic custom air-water intercooler that could be cooled continuously on the dyno with tap water or with a dry-ice heat sink at the track.GM Racing subcontractor Shaver Specialties dramatically upgraded the Ecotec head with significant porting and maximum size lightweight stainless-steel valves. Current SS flow-bench data shows the ported head capable of flowing 272 cfm of air at 0.450 lift and 175-207 cfm exhaust.

With valve seals removed to prevent high-lift collisions with the retainers, Crower cams provide total lift and duration of .46482 inches and 221.4 degrees of duration, total exhaust lift and duration of .46737 inches and 221.3 degrees. Shaver employed a proprietary GM Racing solution to forestall valve float problems at high-rpm and boost (with an eventual goal of 10,000 rpm redline. GM Racing decided to delete the Ecotec balance shafts).

By this time, the Turbo Ecotec powerplant had grown significantly in width. The GM Team decided to rotate it forward by 33 degrees. This would help deal with multi-G effects on oil drain and dramatically reduce the difficulty of packing it in a racecar.

GM Racing converted the Ecotec to a multi-stage dry-sump oil system designed to reduce crankcase windage and thus increase power by scavenging oil and crankcase gases directly from the cylinder head and oil pan into a high-volume external tank. From the tank a separate pump would provide superior low-temperature, high-pressure lubrication with reduced aeration directly to the short block, head and turbocharger.

The GM team built a narrow, low-volume, forward biased V-shaped oil pan that funneled return oil to dual dry-sump scavenge pickups. They opened up windows in the girdle of the "Slant-Four" to prevent oil from puddling at a recloated low point and killing horsepwoer by interfering with the crank at high rpm.

Quest for Failure: Boost

The new turbo Ecotec immediately cranked out 350 hp at 7000 rpm on 2 psi boost, and rapidly closed in on 450 hp with no failures. "Our tuning strategy," says Bothwell. "Was to start rich with a computer generated air-fuel map and sneak up on rich-best torque."

The new turbo Ecotec was defiantly responsive: GM Racing set idle at 1800 rpm, and if you punched it quick, the unloaded engine would blow completely through the 10K rev-limiter in less than a tenth of a second. The team expected an Ecotec-powered drag car to launch at 8000 rpm and run all the way through the gears in the quarter mnile, so they cared mainly about the 5-10K rpm range. In this range, GM Racing wanted the turbocharger to achieve any level of "full boost" nearly 100-percent of the time.

As testing continued, GM Racing monitored EGT and exhaust gas oxygen on all four cylinders. Full-power target EGT was 1,230-degrees F, and would never exceed 1,350-degrees. The team continuously logged all sensor data throughout the power quest. The routine was, run the dyno manually at an array of "break points" of speed, loading and boost, holding the engine steady at each point to tweak various parameters that define optimal rich/best torque--using EGT and wide-range 02 data, fuel-rail pressure, torque and power readouts, a remote-control electronic boost controller and a laptop computer to recalibrate injection pulsewidth and spark advance.

Throughout turbo Ecotec dyno testing, GM Racing chilled the air-water intercooler with fresh tap water. At high levels of boost, pressurized air would enter the cooler at 200 degrees, leave at 105-110 degrees, with some creep due to packaging compromises and negligible pressure-drop. At the track, a dry ice heat-sink would reduce the intake air exiting the cooler to 60-70 degrees.

At 450 hp and 8 psi boost, the GM team began blowing head gaskets. One theory was that core-shifting in the block was causing the gasket to fail (Because some Honda motors have this problem). "I didn't buy it, says Bothwell. "But we tried converting the Ecotec block to a solid deck. This, unfortunately, just wasted time and destroyed some blocks, probably due to thermal-expansion issues."

The GM team decided the head was flexing. Returning to a stock-deck Ecotec block, they switrched to high-strength H11 head studs. This restricted the head gasket leakage and failure exclusively to outboard sections of the fire ring at either end of the head on cylinders one and four. The GM team solved this problem by reinforcing the two problem areas with twin studs that threaded through bored machined into the upper structure of the head and jammed against the outboard fire-ring areas of the head next to cylinders one and four.

The engine now happily made 500 hp-- and ran smack into the outer limits of stock coil-onplug performance. integral microprocessors will not allow the stock coils to energize and fire in the presence of excessive voltage. Short-term solution: GMR converted to a cam driven distributor ignition with industrial-strength super coil.

Unfortunately, as power climbed toward 600, the entire block-head interfacr began leaking from extreme compression pressures. The GM team pressed stainless O-rings into machined grooved in the head, machined receiver grooves in the block and installed a soft copper head gasket. Problem solved.

At 600 hp, theextreme power and engine speeds began distorting and flexing the aftermarket super-duty 4350 wrist pins. Left unattended, this would eventually tear out the pin towers below the wrist pins. In this same power range, the Ecotec's ring packs began failing. GM Racing opened the wrist pin bores in the p istons by .003-inch and installed thicker H11 wrist pins with thicker walls. The team simultaneously migrated from the 1.0-x 1.0-x 3.0-inch aftermarket rings to Total Seal 1.5- x 1.5- 4.0-inch ring packs.

The Ecotec was finally reliable to 650 hp at 19 psi of boost--a relatively low level of boost, indicating outstanding volumetric efficiency. The GM team verified acceptable stress on all parts and lowered oil pressure to 85 psi after concluding that higher pump settings simply robbed horsepower and excessively aerated the oil.

The Push for 800 Horsepower

Consider this: 800 hp is a lot. On a 122 cubic inch motor with 750hp--three-quarters of a thousand--you're basically dealing with 6.14 hp per cubic inch. Pressures and stresses of all kinds--thermal and mechanical loading across the board--escalate to extreme levels. A Chevrolet 5.7-liter LS1 V8 with this much specific power (horseposer per cubic inch) would be making 2,137 hp.

The super-modified Ecotec was able to achieve a reliable 750 hp on 24 psi of boost at 9000 rpm with 10:1 compression and an unspecified fuel with extremely high octane and excellent range, GM Racing began to encounter such extreme cylinder pressures and thermal expansion that the thin-wall stock cylinder sleeves and support structure began to warp and go out of round, split. Cylinder piston became a problem.

As of this writing, the team has developed a promising new "Super-Turbo" Ecotec, built in a process where GMR machinist entirely removes the stock sleeves and aluminum cylinder support structure/core, pressing thick, custom-built bottom-flanged steel sleeves into receiver bores machined directly into the floor of the water jacket. GMR reinforces the new extra-thick full-floating sleeves with a pool of epoxy that effectively raises the floor of the water jacket to surround the base of the cylinders, GM Racing increaased the cylinder bore clearance in the Super-Turbo engine by 0.001-inch, and shot-peened the piston skirts to help retain oil.

Analysis

It's amazing that any components whatsoever designed for a stock 140 hp 2.2-liter Ecotec would survive on an extreme power plant making more than six times its power. However the stock Ecotec block and main/girdle structure did survive to 750 hp, as did the stock sleeves. The stock main bearings survived. The stock stamped roller finger-followers were effective to
at least 9700 rpm, as were the hydraulic lifters. The oil passages remained stock to 800 hp. The stock chains, guides, tensioners and water pump worked all the way to heaven. The stock head survived with minor strengthening and massive breathing modifications. Many other components were good for two to four times stock power (see Chart). GM Powertrain engineers designed a base engine with many stock components that were above and beyond what was needed for stock performance. "The crank support structure of the Ecotec is unbelievably strong," says Bothwell. "We detected no core shifting under the most extreme conditions."

The engine-fuel combination turned out to be extremely knock-resistant. The Ecotec combustion chamber is efficient, with an excellent tumble and high flame speed, and the engine was able to run 10:1 compression without knock at boost pressures as high as 36 psi at 21 degrees spark advance. In a vehicle, the on-board computer is aware of which gear is in use and varies maximum boost accordingly to avoid detonation and traction control problems.

From the excellent power-boost ratio of 750 hp at 24 psi, one can infer that careful turbo selection, camshaft selection and timing, good intercooling and carefully considered turbo system geometry result in a happy situation in which inlet manifold pressure exceeds backpressure in a happy phenomenon called crossover, where horsepower really skyrockets.

Turbo configuration and size would change three times during the tuning process. The highest-flow turbo is currently capable of delivering 40 psi boost at very high power levels. The largest Innovative wastegate is unable to divert enough exhaust to keep boost from creeping to a minimum of 15 psi when heavily loaded on the dyno, though this is not a problem on the track.

What is the Ecotec"s final frontier? So far, unknown; but we'll be looking to the track in 2002
for the answers to that question.

(The above article was Quoted from the 2002 Turbo & High-Tech Performance Magazine - March 2002.)

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#2426745 - 03/11/08 10:31 PM Re: Discuss: ECOTEC [Re: Z24 lol]
Euphoricuck Offline
Post Master Supreme


Registered: 11/05/03
Posts: 92703
Loc: Canadistan
 Originally Posted By: HoustonRSX
 Originally Posted By: Euphoric
 Originally Posted By: HoustonRSX
I am just wondering how long it will take Nissan/Honda to realize they need a turbo powered car to compete.



but do they really? People will still buy the cars....and the new engines respond quite well to bolt ons and a reflash.


Stock for stock and mod for mod a factory F/I car will always perform better.


stock for stock? not so much, totally depends. only in recent years have the FI cars really had a big advantage over the n/a counterparts stock for stock...

mod for mod turbo cars have always had an advantage , which is definately understandable but in recent years (k series) that advantage is more even or even behind lol gti for those first bunch of bolt ons.

k series has a turbo like performance upgrade from basic bolt ons/reflash. and by that I mean the difference in 1/4 mile time and traps from before and after mods.
No way a b16 or b18 is gonna go from low 90 traps to 100 mph traps with some bolt ons and a reflash. the itr is already close at around 98ish mph but even with some more basic mods youd only pick up a mph or two.
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