#6730460 - 11/23/12 09:51 AM
An E36 owner's FRS review
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4age
XD XD XD XD
Post Master Sr
Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 3969
Loc: North York, Ontario, Canada
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So I test drove the FRS yesterday.
I know that all publications and fanboys wax lyrical about it's phenomenal chassis feedback blah blah blah. So I'm going to skip that part because we don't need to hear anymore of it!
I honestly went to test the car with the expectation that I'd be underwhelmed. Quite the contrary after I drove it. This is the most accurate, sharp bone stock car I've ever driven. Forget all that talk about balance. Here's why:
The salesman was understanding of what I was looking for (a track slut) and was comfortable with me letting loose and doing whatever I wanted with it. So I did. The thing that stood out most to me is that there is no car that I've ever driven (modified or not) which allowed for such minute small adjustments in cornering attitude/yaw angles with as much precision as this.
Throw the thing into a corner hard. Purposely brake late + weight the front end, turn the wheel and point it into the apex. want to have some fun? right foot. Play with that throttle. Roll onto it slightly and the car responds and steps out the back end that same slight little bit (ie: proportional to the amount of throttle you added). Roll on a little more, and it'll swing out that little more. If you back off, it also backs off right away and tucks back in line. This thing is so responsive to throttle inputs--for me, this is what makes it really wonderful.
Yes yes I know lots of cars can do this, but don't misunderstand--I've not experienced a car that can do this with this level of accuracy. Very small touches to any input will translate to a motion in the chassis. Not only that, but it happens *instantly*. I never understood the word "sharp" as defining a car's handling characteristic...but now I do. This car is "sharp".
The entire car will yaw around the driver (as the driver is really central in the car) and to offer this much control and precision with *just your right foot* is something special in a box stock econobox "sports car".
Thus far I've only talked about the gas pedal!!!!
Steering on center feel is very special in this car. I never expected much as most modern cars have SHIT steering. Any movement of the wheel off center = the car darting in that direction. Move the wheel even a milimeter and the car responds right away and goes in that direction with haste. In a typical car, it will sort of roll after you move the wheel, then it'll settle in and then it'll move in that direction. This is just quick. Move the wheel = the front end moves. That simple. "Sharp".
This is also the first modern car (can you tell I don't like modern cars by now) with a *non overboosted brake pedal*. I'm so thrilled to see this. Really, a gift from the toybaru gods. It's just a stiff, basic brake pedal. Think 90s feeling. No artificial EBD feelings, no early ABS, no excessively grabby initial bite. Easy to modulate. GREAT for hard trackwork.
Forward visibility again is sublime *for a modern car*. Typically, we're plagued with giant a pillars with their side curtain airbags getting in your face and blocking line of sight--especially when you're looking left. This car does not. The A pillars are moved far to the side and the forward visibility is clear. Also, due to this car's low belt line and the fact that the dashboard itself sits so low, you have tons of greenhouse infront of you to look out of. IE) If you sat in a 90s accord, and then sat in a current accord, you'll feel like you can't see shit out the front end. Well, this is very 90's accord with that low dash!
As a comparison to my own car -- a somewhat track prepared E36 M3... The M3 allows much more time to think when things happen. Things just happen slower in the M3, and it responds slower. FRS required more focus, just because everything is instant. You really feel that light weight and short wheelbase. It's darty. it's responsive (especially to the right foot). I like it.
The motor though is uninspiring--especially the sound. It sounds downright boring. A droning nuisance in the cabin. It's too bad that they put a subaru engine in there. Power band is nothing to write home about--it feels like an EK SIR power wise. EXCEPT it doesnt sound like a B16. It sounds boring.
Power is anemic on the highway. I downshifted twice (into 4th) and floored it...and was met with a very slow movement of the rev counter...it climbs the revs slowly. Doenst matter what rev band you're in, it has no balls. Rev it out and it takes forever, shift early and it still has no balls. It's like there's no difference. As a DD, I can see this car really falling short and being boring.
To the fanboys who perhaps are not so familiar with vehicle dynamics and manipulating the chassis...yes, a good car to learn on with proper driving instruction. Without it and traction aids off, I can see people getting themselves into trouble.
This is the most neutral stock car I've ever driven. I never lower my cars for fun--I always select specific spring rates to alter the car to achieve the balance I'm looking for. This car is already there. No joke. When the marketing mumbo jumbo says that a lot of develoment work was put into the setup...I don't doubt it. It goes where you point it, and it rotates on demand. It responds fast. Again, it's wonderful--and this is with OEM alignment settings don't forget!!!
As a final 2 cents, I probably wouldn't even want to change the factory shitty prius tires. The car's good character is it's flingability, and how much the right foot can affect the car--whether it being purposely hanging ass out in a corner or just mid corner corrections. Giving it more grip takes away from this charming character...and of course, the right foot would have less effect after that. This is one of those "driving a slow car fast" = balls of fun. It's much more engaging than my car is, despite my car's performance being superior.
Would I buy it? uhh thinking about it ._.
coles notes
FRS sucks as DD. Engine sucks. No balls. Sounds bad. Drives SICK.
You will be smiling so long as there are corners.
Edited by 4age (11/23/12 09:56 AM)
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#6730470 - 11/23/12 09:59 AM
Re: An E36 owner's FRS review
[Re: 4age]
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Risky Business
Provides a Great Work Environment. he/him
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 05/17/10
Posts: 44796
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Nice review...do you think the e36 "feels" slower in responding compared to the FRS or is it actually slower? Keep in mind the e36 m3 steering rack is crap and is a simple fix with a 330zhp or z3 rack, which changes the feel completely. Euphoric did this mod as well as many people and the responses are pretty good. I will agree the car "feels" like it does it slower than a ligher EG hatch as an example, but I'd argue it's just feel, not translation to the actual performance (steering excluded, it is slower).
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#6730482 - 11/23/12 10:12 AM
Re: An E36 owner's FRS review
[Re: Risky Business]
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4age
XD XD XD XD
Post Master Sr
Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 3969
Loc: North York, Ontario, Canada
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Nice review...do you think the e36 "feels" slower in responding compared to the FRS or is it actually slower? Keep in mind the e36 m3 steering rack is crap and is a simple fix with a 330zhp or z3 rack, which changes the feel completely. Euphoric did this mod as well as many people and the responses are pretty good. I will agree the car "feels" like it does it slower than a ligher EG hatch as an example, but I'd argue it's just feel, not translation to the actual performance (steering excluded, it is slower).
E36 is not slower. It will cream the FRS on the track no doubt.
When I say "slower" i mean response to inputs. Steering aside, the E36 will respond slower to any throttle inputs or changes in weighting the car compared with the FRS. It simply has more weight to throw around, has a longer wheelbase and the wheels as far to the outer corners as the FRS. And I hate to say it, the cg. It's a shock when you're used to looking at the S52 jutting out in the engine bay of an E36, and then looking at an FRS...the fucking valve cover is at your knees.
Say you're commited to a corner, the car is pushing and you play with the throttle to get some yaw. The E36 will respond slower to inputs in the right pedal, and not only that, but would require more pedal input to make it yaw compared with the FRS. In the FRS, very little driver action translates to a large movement in the car. You can drive it with much more of a precision driving style. Less mashing, just a lighter touch...more delicate. Or say you go in hot, and you want to weight the front end for more bite and take away that push... you can back off the gas on the E36, and it'll take some time before it bites. FRS is much more instant in terms of response. You back of the gas, the front end will bite. I can see the FRS not being friendly to jerky hamfisted driving, unless it's intentional that the driver wants the throw it off balance.
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#6730565 - 11/23/12 11:32 AM
Re: An E36 owner's FRS review
[Re: Hatorade]
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JEFFOS
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 01/27/00
Posts: 29150
Loc: Toronto
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I look forward to when they put a more powerful engine in there.
I'm excited for a few new cars too - new Infiniti G , new mustang, new IS (although Lexus has been letting me down with their styling as of late)
_________________________
-Jeff
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#6730610 - 11/23/12 12:13 PM
Re: An E36 owner's FRS review
[Re: 4age]
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Euphoricuck
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 11/05/03
Posts: 92703
Loc: Canadistan
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Steering aside, the E36 will respond slower to any throttle inputs or changes in weighting the car compared with the FRS. It simply has more weight to throw around, has a longer wheelbase and the wheels as far to the outer corners as the FRS. require more pedal input to make it yaw compared with the FRS. .
And I agree here. Even the sti is much more reponsive in this dept than the e36m
and I get to compare them a lot.
And for thise wondering the e46 is no better.
The slower,heavier controls is a bmw thing
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#6730741 - 11/23/12 02:16 PM
Re: An E36 owner's FRS review
[Re: Choco 'Nuck]
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Euphoricuck
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 11/05/03
Posts: 92703
Loc: Canadistan
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^^ Mini's steering is neither heavy nor slow. Its also a BMW rack.
who manufactures the rack? bmw doesnt manufacture any... also steering pump/hydraulics(electric etc) all change the dynamics.
part of the allure of a bmw is the heavier feel.
the z4m coupe has one of the quickest steering ratios on an oem car. bmw started to quicken them up ....though now with electric steering etc..feel is hit or miss(across any make) . Also steering geometry also changes that steering feel. The whole package adds up to it.
the oem e36m rack isnt the slowest but it was somewhat slow and one of my complaints about it when I got it. Ive since made it better.
Some have hypothesized bmw purposely ran slower racks due to higher speed cruising on the autobahn( a "sneeze factor" so to speak)...who knows.
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#6731225 - 11/23/12 11:09 PM
Re: An E36 owner's FRS review
[Re: Choco 'Nuck]
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JEFFOS
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 01/27/00
Posts: 29150
Loc: Toronto
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Would be nice but I'm in the middle of buying a house - no luck on new cars right now for me (and my Lexus is a great DD). One day and a promotion or 2 later maybe though. I'm just happy to start seeing the new models of everything start to come in, everything has been out for some time now, time for the refresh.
_________________________
-Jeff
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#6732406 - 11/25/12 10:52 AM
Re: An E36 owner's FRS review
[Re: Screamin Type ARGH!]
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Choco 'Nuck
Proud Member of BLM
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 07/10/01
Posts: 17568
Loc: Somewhere out there
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Face it, certain e36 owners (OP excluded) can't admit that the toyobaru is a better drivers car than the E36 
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#6732647 - 11/25/12 03:14 PM
Re: An E36 owner's FRS review
[Re: Choco 'Nuck]
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Euphoricuck
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 11/05/03
Posts: 92703
Loc: Canadistan
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#6732688 - 11/25/12 04:10 PM
Re: An E36 owner's FRS review
[Re: Choco 'Nuck]
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Risky Business
Provides a Great Work Environment. he/him
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 05/17/10
Posts: 44796
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You just love you some hatin' on the e36m3.
Go ahead, hate away!!!
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#6733259 - 11/25/12 10:10 PM
Re: An E36 owner's FRS review
[Re: Choco 'Nuck]
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4age
XD XD XD XD
Post Master Sr
Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 3969
Loc: North York, Ontario, Canada
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^^ Haven't found out who makes the Rack for BMW, but I would guess its a ZF rack. Its a really tight ratio, quicker than the Z4M coupe for sure.
Tell me if you agree with me, a faster car isn't necessarily a better driver's car. It really is about feel, and the FRS feels better. You don't need a new car to feel that, the E30 is even older, and it still has more feel and feedback than the E36. That alone makes the car a better drivers car, it doesn't have to be faster on the track at all. All those things that it does "differently" as you put it are exactly what makes it better!
We aren't talking about which is a better track car. I would also say that the miata is a better driver's car than the e36 :p
Ahaha I like this debate. I will say this: I absolutely love my e36.
I'm not sure which is a better "drivers" car, or what that really means. I'm of the opinion that a chassis with both handling and feedback traits which suit the drivers preference and driving style is what is most ideal.
I dont know how many people here have actually driven an e36--and i mean drive. Not putting around. Not only is it a very capable chassis, but it is damn easy to drive. It's predictable, lets you know what the front tires are doing via the steering feedback, and the backend is felt with your tailbone. It has no ill characteristics. Understeer is both predictable and manageable. Power band is meaty and really something to behold.
My 2nd time out on DDT counter clockwise 1 kink config I ran a 1:05 with passenger in traffic on street rubber. It takes not only a capable chassis for one to feel that comfortable in a foreign environment with traffic, but also one that let's you know what it's doing. I'd bet the FRS in my hands is 1.5 sec behind which is an eternity on DDT.
Again, I love the car but any BMW--modern or old has really stupid "BMW" problems--especially when it comes to preparing a car for track use. I don't know where I'm going with this but the E36 is top notch stuff--especially wonderful for a strut front end car with rubber bushings everywhere. I would even argue that the 3 series does not get better than the E36 from a track point of view. Given a budget of say 35k to build a track car, E36 is going to be most capable at least to the tracks I frequent. It being such a narrow track also is an advantage.
I've also driven an NA and NB miata (but not NC). Without a doubt the miata has NOTHING--absolutely nothing on the FRS. It's flexy, sloppy and despite being even smaller than the FRS, is not as "sharp" as I defined in my initial post. I also considered a miata prior to owning my current car, but after driving both I'll say that the miata has absolutely nothing on the E36...I'm sorry 
EDIT: Oh I meant to add--not sure if the FRS provides any better "feel" than the E36. To me and the way I drive, I find the FRS more entertaining however. It's because the FRS responds quicker to inputs. As a driver, you must be more "on the ball" and requires more concentration driving an FRS at 10/10ths. Hard to explain--FRS responds very swiftly to inputs. With the E36, though I'm hitting corners at a higher velocity, I have more time to think. It's more forgiving, better able to handle the increased speed perhaps. Dare I say it, E36 requires less skill to drive. It could be my setup, I don't know. I can pound lap after lap of consistent times in my car--tire temps and pressures be damned (as the laps pile on). FRS is more entertaining. It'll do the same thing much slower but require more focus. It's more readily flingable. Yes, limits are lower but it's more of a balancing act driving the FRS.
Edited by 4age (11/25/12 10:24 PM)
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#6733528 - 11/26/12 07:53 AM
Re: An E36 owner's FRS review
[Re: Choco 'Nuck]
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Euphoricuck
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 11/05/03
Posts: 92703
Loc: Canadistan
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^^ LMAO, just trying to get Euphoric to face the facts.
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#6733529 - 11/26/12 07:55 AM
Re: An E36 owner's FRS review
[Re: Choco 'Nuck]
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Euphoricuck
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 11/05/03
Posts: 92703
Loc: Canadistan
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Its a really tight ratio, quicker than the Z4M coupe for sure.
As I said its not just the steering ratio which contributes to response. Suspension setup/geometry and tires all go into it.
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#6733688 - 11/26/12 09:30 AM
Re: An E36 owner's FRS review
[Re: Euphoricuck]
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4age
XD XD XD XD
Post Master Sr
Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 3969
Loc: North York, Ontario, Canada
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Oooo and to join the 3 series bashing, I found an enlightening article which highlights the E90 vs E36 M3. The journalist has this to say:
"Because of extensive experience with the E36 M3, it’s hard for me to not compare these two models. To this day, the E36 M3 remains one of my most favorite rides. It’s balanced in any circumstance, and makes you feel like a hero no matter what. IMO, it’s one of the greatest drivers’ cars ever made. This current one……isn’t." http://www.meltedrubber.com/2009/05/2008-e92-bmw-m3-review.html
Newer is not always better. I've not had the pleasure of driving an E90 M3, but the E90 335 transmits next to nothing back to the driver with regards to what I've come to expect. As Euphoric surmised, it's all a numbers game.
Bigger tires, bigger motor, bigger power numbers does not always equal better driving experience.
*Keep in mind that I'm coming at this with a "lets take it to the track and go nuts" point of view. E90 is a better DD...but that's all it's better at
Edited by 4age (11/26/12 09:30 AM)
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