Eletrical/DIY gurus.

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#5810528 - 09/19/11 01:19 PM Eletrical/DIY gurus.
Risk E. Business, esq. Risk E. Business, esq. Provides a Great Work Environment. Post Master Supreme Registered: 05/17/10 Posts: 46502	I am doing some work at my house and I am honestly getting fed up with conflicting shit I get from friends/family/guy at rona, etc. I know the right answer is somewhere in the middle, but here goes. My house currently has an 125amp panel (main) from the street with a few more breaker openings. My objective is to run another stove in my basement, a fridge, and a few more outlets for microwave/toaster/etc. as I am putting a small kitchen downstairs. To buy breakers for my existing panel is expensive, I don’t have exact prices since I don’t have internet and haven’t checked. I will check tonight to find out the exact cost of breakers for my original panel. In the meantime a friend gave me a 100 amp panel with breakers for free, the idea is to use this as a sub panel to power my little kitchen stove/outlets. Generally you’d use 60amp, but since this one is free I figured 100 amp will suffice. The issue: is it to code? Well here is the cluster fuck I am getting into. I am told that if I run a 100amp sub panel even though it will only have a stove and a few outlets I’d have to run a really thick wire (3 guage as per Rona guy – who refused to sell it to me WTF????) as if I was servicing a fully loaded 100 amp wire. The reason is that if I sell the house and people see the open breaker spots they will use them. I told him that I can blank them off, whatever I will only use it for stove/etc. It become a d!ck measurement contest, he may be right, I don’t know so I left. What I need to know is can I pass inspection (electrical for my insurance company) by running a 100 amp pony panel if I am only utilizing very few breakers? If so, what guage wire do I need to run to it from the main panel? Other options: Get 200 amp panel from other friend for free, get city to change my service to 200amp. Conduit size is already made for that as homes here can be fairly sized. This is the most expensive options, but not a bad one and probably “cleanest” Run a real 60 amp panel, but I’d be paying upwards of $300+ for the panel and breakers to do the exact same thing that my 100 amp donated one will do, which includes breakers and it’s free. What the FAWK am I supposed to do? Sorry for the long rant, just getting fed up with this bullshit.
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#5810565 - 09/19/11 01:35 PM Re: Eletrical/DIY gurus. [Re: Risk E. Business, esq.]
CivicGSR50 CivicGSR50 Poster Registered: 01/14/10 Posts: 243	Vasoline, Don't worry about the butt-hurt you're experiencing right now. I've got the same thing at my place, 100 amp main, and a separate pony panel, yes with a 3 gauge wire. Mine was up to code, and got it inspected, the only difference is that once I upgraded from Knob and Tube, I installed ground fault breakers, that was upto and beyond code for bedroom wiring. Theres two electrical supply companies on Denison near Vic Park, they'll sell you everything/anything. Oh yeah, they're former electricians on staff as well. PM me your bbm, i'll take a pic of my setup tonight, visual is everything. Buy new panel, add pony panel, do it all one time right. No No, we do not MAKE IT RIGHT..
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#5810599 - 09/19/11 01:58 PM Re: Eletrical/DIY gurus. [Re: CivicGSR50]
loudsubz loudsubz Post Master Supreme Registered: 08/16/01 Posts: 11337 Loc: Ontario, Canada	Perfectly fine to run the 100 amp panel as a pony. The guy at rona is a dumb dumb. You also don't need to run the wire for the 100 amp that the pony is rated for. You could run a 40 or 60 amp from your main and feed it to the pony since this will be the deciding factor of the main load, not the 100 amp breaker on the pony. Its sometimes cheaper to run a 100 amp "nu pak" kit as it already comes with a bunch of breakers meant for new service installs, so you can save money that way. I asked all of this when doing mine and its even listed in the code book. A real panel swap @ your main will be more $$ like you said, because you have to do things like upgrade the ground wire to a larger gauge and also ground the gas line if it hasn't been done already. New conduit from the server outside (2") to your panel. If its below grade you have to dig it up and also core a larger hole in your brick to get the larger conduit through. You will also need new mains coming from the meter to your panel etc. You also have to call the city and make sure they ran the correct wire to your meter for your service. I am sure in your neck of the woods they did, but in mine with smaller homes they only ran enough for 125 amp feeds. If you don't care about running a pony just go that route.
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#5810606 - 09/19/11 02:01 PM Re: Eletrical/DIY gurus. [Re: loudsubz]
Risk E. Business, esq. Risk E. Business, esq. Provides a Great Work Environment. Post Master Supreme Registered: 05/17/10 Posts: 46502	I want to do this clean and proper without spending a fortune. By the way thanks for the advice you gave me before!!! Where did you recommend I get a breaker for my main panel since i need one feed to go into the sub? What wire guage should I use from my main to the pony panel?
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#5810615 - 09/19/11 02:06 PM Re: Eletrical/DIY gurus. [Re: Risk E. Business, esq.]
Risk E. Business, esq. Risk E. Business, esq. Provides a Great Work Environment. Post Master Supreme Registered: 05/17/10 Posts: 46502	Another thing to note is that I will be doing a natural gas stove on my main floor in a few years time. Eventually the basement stove will also be natural gas so I do plan on reducing the electrical load on the panel.
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#5810619 - 09/19/11 02:07 PM Re: Eletrical/DIY gurus. [Re: Risk E. Business, esq.]
Euphoricuck Euphoricuck Post Master Supreme Registered: 11/05/03 Posts: 92703 Loc: Canadistan	coat hanger. better electron flow _________________________
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#5810624 - 09/19/11 02:09 PM Re: Eletrical/DIY gurus. [Re: Euphoricuck]
loudsubz loudsubz Post Master Supreme Registered: 08/16/01 Posts: 11337 Loc: Ontario, Canada	40 amp = 8/3 wire (8 awg, 3 conductor) 50 amp = 6/3 wire etc
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#5810630 - 09/19/11 02:12 PM Re: Eletrical/DIY gurus. [Re: loudsubz]
Risk E. Business, esq. Risk E. Business, esq. Provides a Great Work Environment. Post Master Supreme Registered: 05/17/10 Posts: 46502	Matt, for my pony panel should i treat it as a 60amp or a 40 amp, i will have to change the main breaker on it right or no? For stove and misc outlets what should I change it to if i have to change it?
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#5810643 - 09/19/11 02:17 PM Re: Eletrical/DIY gurus. [Re: Risk E. Business, esq.]
Senor Eduardo_82 Senor Eduardo_82 miataist Post Master Supreme Registered: 01/09/03 Posts: 38067 Loc: Caï¿½ada	Monster Cables
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#5810693 - 09/19/11 02:45 PM Re: Eletrical/DIY gurus. [Re: Euphoricuck]
Screamin' Type-R Screamin' Type-R The R stands for exactly what you think it does. Post Master Supreme Registered: 02/20/01 Posts: 48088 Loc: T.O. - Canaduh	Originally Posted By: Euphoric coat hanger. better electron flow dead _________________________ "Ban low performance drivers, not high performance cars"
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#5810746 - 09/19/11 03:13 PM Re: Eletrical/DIY gurus. [Re: Euphoricuck]
titty sprinkles titty sprinkles Post Master Supreme Registered: 08/22/05 Posts: 17582 Loc: Toronto,Ontario	Originally Posted By: Euphoric coat hanger. better electron flow _________________________ 2019 TLX Aspec
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#5810897 - 09/19/11 04:05 PM Re: Eletrical/DIY gurus. [Re: titty sprinkles]
robbbby robbbby master electrician Post Master Supreme Registered: 01/23/02 Posts: 15430 Loc: Canada	you don't need a "main" breaker in your pony panel. If it does have a 100A main breaker you can still connect a smaller wire size to it. The wire is protected at the breaker in your original panel, that is the breaker you need to size right. Just buy a 2 pole 60A breaker for your main panel, buy a metre or two of 6/3 NMD90, and put the wire on the 100A main breaker in the subpanel and hook it up to the 60A breaker in the original panel. If the sub panel only has lugs and no 100A breaker, don't worry about it, just hook the wires up to the lugs. Also on a sub panel you need to unbond your grounded conductur (white/neutral), from ground. Take a pic of the inside of the subpanel and i'll draw an arrow to what you need to remove.
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#5810912 - 09/19/11 04:11 PM Re: Eletrical/DIY gurus. [Re: robbbby]
Risk E. Business, esq. Risk E. Business, esq. Provides a Great Work Environment. Post Master Supreme Registered: 05/17/10 Posts: 46502	Thanks for clarifying that!!! Man I know it’s simple, but it still specialized enough where you really need to be in the trades with experience to know all this little stuff. So I have to price out a 60amp breaker for my main and then I will just run the 6/3 into the pony panel which has a 100 amp breaker on it. This is where the Rona guy confused me, fawking moron. He told me I’d overload the wire and set the house on fire. I will take pics tonight, hopefully I get my internet up and working.
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#5810917 - 09/19/11 04:13 PM Re: Eletrical/DIY gurus. [Re: Risk E. Business, esq.]
Risk E. Business, esq. Risk E. Business, esq. Provides a Great Work Environment. Post Master Supreme Registered: 05/17/10 Posts: 46502	robbby does it matter how long the run of 6/3 is to the pony panel to be up to code? What's NMD90 mean? My pony panel is about 10 ft away from the main.
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#5810924 - 09/19/11 04:16 PM Re: Eletrical/DIY gurus. [Re: Risk E. Business, esq.]
Risk E. Business, esq. Risk E. Business, esq. Provides a Great Work Environment. Post Master Supreme Registered: 05/17/10 Posts: 46502	Also, is 60amp breaker ok to run on my 125amp service? Should I go down to 40amps so it's a 40amp pony panel? Is a 40amp enough for a stove and misc plugs?
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#5810944 - 09/19/11 04:28 PM Re: Eletrical/DIY gurus. [Re: Risk E. Business, esq.]
robbbby robbbby master electrician Post Master Supreme Registered: 01/23/02 Posts: 15430 Loc: Canada	For running it in your house it won't matter how long the run is, voltage drop won't be an issue in your case. I suggest doing 60A. The price difference will be really small to step to 60 from 40, and it may come in handy down the road if you need to add other stuff. If it is convenient try and put the panel on the opposite side of the basement that way you have access to electrical on both sides of the house in case you finish the basement in between. NMD90 (non metallic sheathed cable 90degree rated) is just the type of cable, you probably refer to it as romex. And yes it is totally ok to run a 60A sub off your 125A main (which is actually probably only 100A, still won't make a difference). You would be surprised how little current you are actually using of that 125 or 100A. And if you really only wanted to do a 40A sub you would be totally fine running a stove and some plugs. Technically your stove is only supposed to draw 80% of its max overcurrent rating which would be 32A, and the only way you're getting close is if you have all the burners and the oven going at the same time. You will be safe with a 40 but the 60 is nice for the future. Who knows you may need to run a panel out of that for the garage, maybe you're going to put a hottub in down the road and the subpanel is the most convenient.
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#5810946 - 09/19/11 04:29 PM Re: Eletrical/DIY gurus. [Re: robbbby]
robbbby robbbby master electrician Post Master Supreme Registered: 01/23/02 Posts: 15430 Loc: Canada	Also, what brand is your existing panel? commander? blueline?
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#5810960 - 09/19/11 04:37 PM Re: Eletrical/DIY gurus. [Re: robbbby]
Risk E. Business, esq. Risk E. Business, esq. Provides a Great Work Environment. Post Master Supreme Registered: 05/17/10 Posts: 46502	Main panel is siemens. i will post pics later tonight.
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#5810972 - 09/19/11 04:40 PM Re: Eletrical/DIY gurus. [Re: Risk E. Business, esq.]
robbbby robbbby master electrician Post Master Supreme Registered: 01/23/02 Posts: 15430 Loc: Canada	if it is a siemens, a 2 pole 40 or 60A breaker won't be expensive. The expensive ones are the old school stuff that isn't made anymore. But ya post pics and pics of the inside of the new panel.
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#5810995 - 09/19/11 04:48 PM Re: Eletrical/DIY gurus. [Re: robbbby]
loudsubz loudsubz Post Master Supreme Registered: 08/16/01 Posts: 11337 Loc: Ontario, Canada	I don't think your panel was a siemens, we were trying to price breakers online for it.
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#5811651 - 09/19/11 09:35 PM Re: Eletrical/DIY gurus. [Re: loudsubz]
Simon_the_Pieman Simon_the_Pieman Post Master Sr Registered: 08/13/01 Posts: 9524 Loc: The A	listen to robby. your main dicates your sub so run the awg you need and break it accordingly. _________________________ "I'd love it if we did it... but I guess I'm a big skeptic on Canadians because so many are retarded as fuck." - 355-Si, 2020
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#5811751 - 09/19/11 10:32 PM Re: Eletrical/DIY gurus. [Re: Simon_the_Pieman]
Risk E. Business, esq. Risk E. Business, esq. Provides a Great Work Environment. Post Master Supreme Registered: 05/17/10 Posts: 46502	loudsubz is right, it's not siemens it's sylvania. I was thinking siemens because everything HD and Rona is. My bad Here are pics of my situation. I got the 6/3 wire, i think i fucked up and got it too short, FUCK!!! 60 dollars down the drain. Anyway, on to the pics: main panel Main panel with cover main panel label Room and wire run to sub panel from main wire run into sub panel sub panel looking from kitchen into living room toward sub panel and main panel Picture of space, sub panel on left wall Moved sub panel 16" over to see if 6/3 wire is long enough $\:\($ pic of main panel and 6/3 wire, probably not long enough, FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK
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#5811764 - 09/19/11 10:37 PM Re: Eletrical/DIY gurus. [Re: Risk E. Business, esq.]
Risk E. Business, esq. Risk E. Business, esq. Provides a Great Work Environment. Post Master Supreme Registered: 05/17/10 Posts: 46502	Moral of the story....don't buy an old house p.s. i wouldn't have it any other way!
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#5811792 - 09/19/11 10:58 PM Re: Eletrical/DIY gurus. [Re: Risk E. Business, esq.]
robbbby robbbby master electrician Post Master Supreme Registered: 01/23/02 Posts: 15430 Loc: Canada	Sylvania uses commander breakers. Unfortunately there is more then one style of commander breaker. Get the letter "type" off an existing breaker or bring one with you to make sure you buy the right commander. In the last picture, if you really want to cheat it you can make that wire work. Will be against code but not anything that is going to cause a fire. (Bring white wire in the 6/3 up to the spare lug where your main neutral comes in, or just bring the entire cable into the main compartment up top). and make sure you use a proper conenctor in that new panel, don't just stuff it in through that giant 2" knockout. And best bet would be to bring the wire into the top of the panel on the sub, will give you the length you need to reach the 100A main breaker and your neutral/ground. You need to take a better picture of the upper guts of the sub panel, need to make sure the neutral bonding screw is removed, I can't tell in the existing picture. Also becareful when installing/removing a breaker in your old panel, the breakers screws onto the live bus as opposed to the newer pushon style of breaker.
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#5811838 - 09/19/11 11:23 PM Re: Eletrical/DIY gurus. [Re: robbbby]
Euphoricuck Euphoricuck Post Master Supreme Registered: 11/05/03 Posts: 92703 Loc: Canadistan	massive progress.... _________________________
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#5812164 - 09/20/11 08:38 AM Re: Eletrical/DIY gurus. [Re: Euphoricuck]
Risk E. Business, esq. Risk E. Business, esq. Provides a Great Work Environment. Post Master Supreme Registered: 05/17/10 Posts: 46502	I am going to try and return the cable i bought from HD and replace it with a longer one, I want to be as clean and up to code as possible. Here are additional pictures: main breaker on sub panel Main panel close up
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#5812292 - 09/20/11 09:59 AM Re: Eletrical/DIY gurus. [Re: Risk E. Business, esq.]
Euphoricuck Euphoricuck Post Master Supreme Registered: 11/05/03 Posts: 92703 Loc: Canadistan	hey bro can you make those bigger? i cant see anything _________________________
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#5812377 - 09/20/11 10:41 AM Re: Eletrical/DIY gurus. [Re: Euphoricuck]
Simon_the_Pieman Simon_the_Pieman Post Master Sr Registered: 08/13/01 Posts: 9524 Loc: The A	butt splice, heat shrink, 1ft of wire and you're there! _________________________ "I'd love it if we did it... but I guess I'm a big skeptic on Canadians because so many are retarded as fuck." - 355-Si, 2020
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#5812616 - 09/20/11 12:27 PM Re: Eletrical/DIY gurus. [Re: Simon_the_Pieman]
loudsubz loudsubz Post Master Supreme Registered: 08/16/01 Posts: 11337 Loc: Ontario, Canada	Originally Posted By: Simon_the_Pieman butt splice, heat shrink, 1ft of wire and you're there! For this he would need an accessible junction box and proper marettes etc.
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#5812673 - 09/20/11 01:07 PM Re: Eletrical/DIY gurus. [Re: loudsubz]
Simon_the_Pieman Simon_the_Pieman Post Master Sr Registered: 08/13/01 Posts: 9524 Loc: The A	it was a joke. lol ps. i have seen shit like that dangling free inside the walls of some places :\ _________________________ "I'd love it if we did it... but I guess I'm a big skeptic on Canadians because so many are retarded as fuck." - 355-Si, 2020
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#5812706 - 09/20/11 01:19 PM Re: Eletrical/DIY gurus. [Re: Risk E. Business, esq.]
c2k c2k Post Master Supreme Registered: 05/21/00 Posts: 19349 Loc: Wiesloch-Walldorf, Germany	Originally Posted By: Risky Business Moral of the story....don't buy an old house p.s. i wouldn't have it any other way! hell no. buying an old house means fixing it up the way you want it rather than builders cookie cutter style with same shit on the street. all i can say is, welcome to the homeowner life, it will get better! take a shitload of pics of before and after and after you're done you'll go DANG.. I did all that? _________________________ Who cares
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#5812909 - 09/20/11 02:34 PM Re: Eletrical/DIY gurus. [Re: Screamin' Type-R]
f22b-dohc f22b-dohc Post Master Supreme Registered: 09/09/05 Posts: 11227 Loc: canadia	Originally Posted By: Creamin Scum Twat Originally Posted By: Euphoric coat hanger @ 45 degree angle. better electron flow dead bah, i went to a gf's friend who bought an old house by the beaches...it was a demolition day thing. BFH, and smash all the walls - take your agression out day. we got to the ceilings on the first floor....--took it off to find another above it.. LOL. who ever reno'ed just built another ceiling over the old... _________________________ JB weld is your friend Chewbacca makes me yawn Yawn "rolling -----on my 2.0, with the rag top down so my hair can blow..."
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#5813197 - 09/20/11 04:44 PM Re: Eletrical/DIY gurus. [Re: loudsubz]
robbbby robbbby master electrician Post Master Supreme Registered: 01/23/02 Posts: 15430 Loc: Canada	Originally Posted By: loudsubz Originally Posted By: Simon_the_Pieman butt splice, heat shrink, 1ft of wire and you're there! For this he would need an accessible junction box and proper marettes etc. technically with #6 you aren't allowed to use marettes, needs to be a compression fitting like a split bolt.
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#5813205 - 09/20/11 04:48 PM Re: Eletrical/DIY gurus. [Re: Risk E. Business, esq.]
robbbby robbbby master electrician Post Master Supreme Registered: 01/23/02 Posts: 15430 Loc: Canada	Originally Posted By: Risky Business I am going to try and return the cable i bought from HD and replace it with a longer one, I want to be as clean and up to code as possible. Here are additional pictures: That curvy strap that is bonding your neutral to your case needs to be removed.
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#5814355 - 09/21/11 10:02 AM Re: Eletrical/DIY gurus. [Re: robbbby]
Risk E. Business, esq. Risk E. Business, esq. Provides a Great Work Environment. Post Master Supreme Registered: 05/17/10 Posts: 46502	Thanks, I bought a longer 6/3 and it's all fixed. No pix yet, had to pour concrete last night to fix my drains and moved patio stones until 1 am.
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